Chapter 2: Q&A / Discussion

[Jeff]

Okay, guys. We've gone through Chapter 1 of this game, which began about three months ago. Hopefully it was enough to set the stage, but by and large it seems we've had a hard time forming a group of fictional characters who like each other or even want to spend any time with one another, despite the common cause of staying alive against unknown enemies.

Even in game it's been said again and again by the characters that they generally don't want to be together. Which is hardly productive to a campaign involving would-be heroes. I mean, you coud just as easily create a D&D character who's a people-hating hermit and who doesn't like adventuring—but why would you? Of course, that's an extreme, but not by much.

Given this, my assumption is that most of you don't subscribe, as I would, to the Playing Into the Game philosophy of roleplaying.

So how do we want to rectifty this? It's already obvious no one approves of any of the others being a leader, even unofficially. If you can't work it into your character to cooperate with the rest, how would you like to make things work?

One thing I would ask is that you consider these two things (from that article), which really sum it up well:

1. "Playing into the game" does not mean you have to give up your character’s original vision. It is simply recognizing that you (the players) and the DM are all there to have a good time. The world does not revolve around you, and not everything that happens is going to happen to you. But, when it does, you will enjoy it that much more if you aren’t alone.

2. "Playing into the game" does mean that it is up to the player to motivate the character.

[Josh]

I've said this before, and I don't know if anyone else agrees, but it seems like everyone needs to be a little more patient with posts and progress in the game.

When we started, everyone said they were more interested in STORY than in MECHANICS. Story does, in fact, involve some downtime where characters can talk to one another.

However, when this starts to happen in the game, people talk about "sitting around doing nothing" or being "restless". Whether the group is sitting and getting lunch, or a drink, or even on a train just waiting for it to arive, it seems that certain characters consider this to be "inaction".

I feel that has a lot to do with the fact that days in "real life" go by while people have a five-minute chat "in game". Can't we all just relax a bit about the pace, and realize that a few days of chatting is actually good? If we just walk from place to place slashing things up, that's not really much of a story.

Anyhow, I'm very much into the idea of Playing Into The Game- I enjoy the action bits as much as the "down time", but wish that other people would also spend that time describing their character more.

As for a leader, yeah I think that's going to be impossible at this point. It's obvious that the characters with the more divisive traits will not relent. There is a certain level of distrust between all of them (something which I have personally tried to remove from Grafth, after they met up with Taymra), and no one seems willing to compromise.

Ed suggested a while ago a sort of "vote" approach, if the majority of the party agreed on a certain path, they would all take it, that type of thing. I think this would work, as long as the dissenters actually DO go along with the group, rather than choosing their own path regardless.

I think we need to stick together more. Maybe that sounds weird to say, considering that Grafth is currently doing something on his own, but this is not the norm for him, where it is quite the norm for others.

This is too long. Overall: Patience, Compromise, Group!

[Joe]

I hope that Streko and I have been playing into the game. If we haven't, then I would appreciate having that be brought to my attention. Streko, it my opinion, has been the ONLY character trying to keep a diplomatic peace between everyone (but as no one listens to him, he hasn't seen much success in that).

Of course, the world doesn't revolve around Streko, although sometimes he wishes for some Kuiper Belt action at the very least...perhaps a wayward comet might be affected just a tad by his diminutive gravometric field...SOMETHING.... ;D

Joe is all for playing into the game...and if Streko has failed in that endeavor at times, it isn't for a lack of trying...but rather, perhaps, for trying to hard.

[Josh]

Streko, I'd say, is a model example of what I was talking about- patient, compromising, and interesting in helping the group. Good job, Joe.

[Joe]

Actually, I think Jeff hit the proverbial cliched nail right upside the head!

Everyone who has been playing has played their characters flawlessly...unfortunately for lawful dynamics, those characters might be considered mostly chaotic.

I cannot tell you how much I've enjoyed watching the character interaction (even the bickering). We, as players (and the DM), are creating this world from our character's dialogue and our character's actions. It has truly been a joy and a great learning experience as well.

However, playing INTO the game has been more difficult, again, mostly due to the characters themselves. Then again, just because it's tough doesn't make it any less fun or challenging. We simply need to keep our perspectives as players...and assist our characters in keeping theirs simultaneously.

[Darren]

I think that my issue, of late, has been simply that we seem to be completely aimless, and I suppose that my own frustration with that has become Kal's frustration with that. It seems like we spend a lot of time talking about what we want to do, and then we never actually do that. If it seems like I'm not playing into the game, it's only because I'm trying to make plans and ensure that there is some follow-thru on them.

[Jeff]

It might seem over-obvious, but perhaps you can find a sense of unity in the group by taking some cues from your friendly neighborhood DM and some of his plot hooks.

Which is not to say that you should leap at every one. Pick and choose. But you should know, I do toss many things out there—colorful characters who move around the PCs—and any of them can lead somewhere.

[Jeremy]

This half-elf's just gonna keep his trap shut and chime in for combat rolls and such.

Lead away, Kal, if you dare.

[Jeff]

This half-elf's just gonna keep his trap shut and chime in for combat rolls and such.

That's pretty depressing, Jeremy. Is this in protest?

[Jeremy]

Nope, not in protest.

I'm just a tad weary of what I consider to be a lot of over-reacting going on to so much of what we all say. I'm sure I've done it as much as anyone. I feel as though I should just see what happens if I stay quiet for a while.

Probably it's my fault. I'm just not good at this style of RPG. I'm more of a decide-act-consequence type of player, which is why I do better in the dungeon environment, where the decisions and consequences are so immediate and clear. This constant quibble and discussion and reaction thing I don't seem to be very good at.

So maybe I should keep my thoughts to myself for a while.

[Jeff]

Isn't making such a general statement ("I won't be talking anymore") is a bit of over-reacting, wouldn't you think?

A positive attitude on everyone's part is the only way to remedy things, if you ask me.

Also, does not talking mean not posting? That'd be a problem.

[Jeremy]

No, I don't mean I'm not posting.

Look, I'll do whatever you want me to do. If you think it will help to keep posting then I'll keep posting, but I think I am entitled to voice an opinion even if it isn't a popular one.

I will make this one point: I think the game is moving too slowly. I think this is one of the reasons why we are so "aimless" as Darren puts it. I'm not blaming the DM or the players solely or specifically, I'm just saying that this is my impression.

[Darren]

I sort of agree with Jeremy on this one, actually. I do think we spend too long sitting around waiting for the next thing to happen sometimes. I'm all for the story aspect of the game, but I think there needs to be more action, as well. Sometimes, I think that I end up posting things in the vein of what Jeremy is talking about simply so that I have something to post, and of late I've felt similarly to him that I would just keep quiet and wait for something to happen. As Jeremy says, I'm not casting any blame, just stating an opinion.

[Jeff]

Of course I want your opinion, Jeremy. But I wish it was more discussionary, suggestive; not just a complaint or to declare that you're going to participate less.

Some of you want action, and nonstop combat. Others want to talk and interact more. Clearly each player wants a different type of game.

So let's figure that out.

I asked this very question long ago, and I got a mix: do you want a game of urban, social intrigue? Or a dungeon-crawl? Or a little of both. The answers (for those who gave them—not all of you did) ran the spectrum, so I've tried to do a sprinkling of all the above. It just so happens that for weeks I've been trying to help steer the characters toward a place with plenty of action. But mostly the posts have been about who so and so doesn't trust.

What am I to do with that? I'm not just going to throw in a random fight for no good reason just to break up the characters' (which are really the players') arguments. That doesn't make a good game.

Also, things may move slow to you but that's also because I'm not racing it along to outpace the less frequent posters. I wait for them. Please remember that we're all in this together.

[Jeff]

Also, everyone:

Given the Schedules/Conflicts thread, I really, really need to know from some of you: just how action-packed are you needing this game to be for this game to meet your expectations?

Some of the difficulties in the game have come because you're trying to stick to your character's personlities no matter what, no matter what it does to overall game flow. But it sort of feels like some don't the reverse to be true: do you really want ad hoc fights just for the sake of more action?

[Josh]

I really don't understand where all the "no action" comments come from. A rundown of the last 24 hours for the characters:

1. They fight a rogue and a warforged.
2. They interrogate the rogue (after distrusting everyone constantly)
3. They friggin fight two more warforged.
4. They make a quick move out of the city, encountering yet another enemy at the station.
5. They get on a train, get to Passage, and Grafth gets some information that NO one is biting on.

So... that's inactive boring nonsense? Seems like a lot has gone on, to me!

Listen guys, I really have tried to help with hooks as much as Jeff is. Treating every NPC as a potential enemy has cause all sorts of problems thus far. Hell, at the farm, everyone was treating each other as the enemy. The lack of sharing and compromise we've shown doesn't make for either a strong team or an easy pick for leader.

That feeling will only go away if you all decide to let it.

My suggestion is this. If someone comes to the table with some valid stuff, PC or NPC, everyone needs to just go along with it AS A GROUP, instead of just wandering off on their own.

Now's a good chance, Grafth has some utterly valid bits. Why not just go with it instead of ignoring it? This could be the chance everyone needs to just chill, play the game, and get into it again.

You have to allow the DM to throw out things that aren't necessarily there to kill us all. Every person we meet won't be a spy. And heck, if they were, part of the fun of an RPG is getting tricked.

I don't really have anything more to say about this. I just want to play the game. Instead of just keeping quiet and speaking when spoken to, let's just throw it all in and go with it.

As a group.

Group.

-roup.

-oup.

[Joe]

Let me make myself perfectly clear here...I am not...NOT...slamming anyone, but from what I"ve seen amongst the players and characters, the characters who are the most aggressive seem to be the one's whose players are the most annoyed at the slow pacing of the game.

How many times have we come up with a problem....only to have it become a bitchfest between the agressive characters and the NPC with whom the discussion is occurring?

It happened at the farm early on, it happened on the train even earlier, it's happened at every point since Streko joined the group. An NPC comes along and it is an almost hateful distrust of them, followed by agressive grandstanding and, to be crude for a moment, some major dick-wagging.

Streko has tried to mediate, has tried to be open and friendly and has been ignored on almost every occassion that he has made suggestions (not all...and I'm not bitching...Streko is NOT a leader and never claimed to be). On occasion, he has made a decision and done something without consulting, knowing that to consult would be to invite discussion...which was absolutely to be avoided at those points. (Granted, the one time he took the lead, he died fairly quickly...heh...)

I have said that I think Goran should lead as he is the least biased character when dealing with the Houses, as this story has been played up to be (Kal is a tried-and-true Deneith and is played perfectly in that regard). There are times, however, when his natural leadership should be followed.

But, really, to bitch about the pacing of the game seems ridiculous to me...as Josh pointed out. There has, in real-time, been non-stop action for the most part, with the necessary down-time observed for mending and healing.

To answer Jeff's question, I am not partial to dungeon crawls, but recognize the joys of beheading and obliterating. I like the idea of intrigue, but intrigue doesn't speed up the game, it keeps it slow...by its very nature. So, I think an even combination is the best bet...which I feel Jeff has been doing admirably so far.

Anyhow, I am very much enjoying this game. I understand the difficulties and time constraints we all have to deal with from time to time...it's called life...but in terms of the story, I think it's working fine...but there is DEFINITELY a trust issue amongst the majority of the players...and from what I can tell, there has been from the get-go. As that hasn't been working for the characters, perhaps a change of attitude is truly in order there.

I hope no toes have been stepped on here...I think everyone has done an outstanding job so far (in terms of the big pitcure). I just wish y'all could see that. This has been a very interesting storyline to follow...and the lurkers out there have been enjoying it as well!

[Jeremy]

Why are we talking about this SOOOOO MUCH!?

I have an idea, let's just let it go when this happens. How about that? If someone wants to pull away for a little while, then just let it be. Jeez, we're all human here. Well, in theory (half-elves and shifters not withstanding).

Why must we debate and criticize every comment and reaction down to the detail? Why must we judge each other's idle comments so much? I guarantee you if we were playing live action we would NOT be reacting so intensely to each other's comments and choices. I'd bet my life on that.

I'll be honest man, my comment yesterday about me putting in fewer entries (which I thought was calm and polite and not a big deal), was simply because I felt like my character couldn't make an out-of-the-ordinary comment without most of the others reacting so much! "Annoyed" and "Maybe we shouldn't bother", etc. So rather than get all shirty about it I just thought I'd take a breather for a while. And that, aside from Goran's long-winded speech on the train, he hasn't done too well communicating with the others it would seem, so he thought perhaps a hiatus from "unnecessary" speech might be wise.

Also, remember I said that he "mumbled" to no one in particular. Isn't it just possible that someone in Goran's position might logically feel that way and just need to vent to himself?

C'mon guys. I you think if I need to lighten up a bit, then maybe so does everyone here.

Now...this "lack of action" complaint doesn't actually exist, in my opinion. I don't think Darren or I actually said that. What we were discussing was a sort of aimlessness in the direction and conversation and since few or none of us still have any idea what's really going in this story, it makes it difficult to stay on track with our characters. It feels like all we're doing is going from one trouble stop to the next without much in the way of reward, whether by information or by treasure. Now, maybe that's just 'cause we suck, I have no idea. ;D

This isn't an indictment of the game-story or the DM (remember my post about giving props to the DM some time ago), I don't know specifically what it is.

Yes, I do remember the question about what type of game we wanted and I remember voting for more of a crawl, because in my opinion in this online format a crawl would be easier to manage and easier to stay focused on.

But that doesn't mean I don't want to stay in this, for the most part I'm having fun. But damn man, I'm allowed to get a little frustrated and I can guarantee you that every reaction I have is not always going to be perfectly rational, even-minded or 100% constructive. I'll take the same bet for everyone here!

So I suggest we let it go, stop over-reacting to each other's comments (perhaps I'm over-reacting even now!) and just play the game.

I would like to vote for a bit more of a chance to understand what is going on because I strongly believe, at least for myself, that this would increase my ability to focus and make decisions within the game. When I made a post about the leadership issue some time ago, one of the points I brought up was that it's hard for a leader to emerge when there really isn't a lot of leading to be done!

That's it and that's all. I'm done. The soapbox is free for the next person.



-J.

[Darren]

I have nothing to add. I think Jeremy pretty much said it all.

[Josh]

I have one thing to add.

Looking back through Chapter 1, I can't really see a ton of overreacting going on between each other (save for everyone but Grafth flipping out over Lady Korvine.. and then conversely Grafth flipping out about how flipping vague Pellorien was being)... most overreacting has happened in response to NPCs. That's the main issue of the exaggerated animosity and the slow pace. Jeff's thrown us so many bones, and everyone reacts as if he threw a bomb.

That has to stop, in my opinion.

[Lara]

I'm in a prickly mood anyway having walked through the door at work and immediately spilled coffee down my shirt first thing this morning, but I guess I'll go ahead and throw in my $.02 here, for whatever it's worth.

1. PbP is slow because it is. Writing about what you're doing, reading about what others are doing, responding in writing then to what others are doing -- these activities force a slow pace. It seems we all understand that, but I'm not sure we're all comfortable with that.

2. Conversation helps create a portrait of your character. A PC's contribution to a conversation doesn't have to be five paragraphs long to be interesting and relevant or to add insight to that PC's character. When was the last time you had a soliloquy like that in conversation with your friends?

2a. More than once I've felt like I've been sabotaged whilst trying to reveal something important about Pellorien by lengthy discussion about how much we distrust each other, so even when I'm trying to stay out of those conversations, I'm still stuck in them.

2b. The PC's actions help create that portrait of the character, too.

3. I feel like I'm getting mixed signals - compliments from Jeff now and again about how I said or did something versus feedback from you guys that there must be something more I should be doing. Though I'm not necessarily being singled out, as such, I certainly get the feeling, for instance, that Josh is grading posts and players and certain of us come up lacking.

4. I haven't seen anyone else address this, so my perception may be skewed, but the lack of camaraderie is something that I have felt extends from the PCs to the players. I certainly take some blame there as I've been exceptionally busy the last several weeks -- the new job is official as of this past Monday, woot! -- so even when I've thought about it I haven't asked Joe how his job search is going, for example, or whomever whatever.

5. I didn't even notice this new thread until you were several posts into it. And then I saw what the focus of discussion was and couldn't help thinking, "Geez, this? Still?" So maybe I'm a day late and a dollar short in posting to it now. But here you are.

[Josh]

For the record, I am neither grading posts nor players, and have no desire or inclination to do so in the future. If you recall, I was the one who accepted a compromise between no posting and mega-posting, when everyone else said things along the lines of "I'm doing it my way, no exceptions."

[Joe]

And lest we all forget, Streko has managed to kiss EVERYONE'S ass at some point in this game (he's even almost died once, dammit all to Khyber!)...so be nice to him!!!!

[Jeff]

At the risk of Jeremy's "Why are we still talking about this?" counter wrath....

I actually think his best point is this:

I guarantee you if we were playing live action we would NOT be reacting so intensely to each other's comments and choices. I'd bet my life on that.

I certainly agree. So much of this confusion and knee-jerk reacting comes from the inability of a message board (just like email) to convey tone and attitude. We do our best, but I think people are reading into things a lot more than they ought to.

Let's just keep going. Please try to work together as a team: when you offer up a plan in character, expect some cooperation but don't flip out when everyone doesn't follow it to the letter. If you don't suggest a plan, then please go along with whatever the others came up with. Maybe that's a start in lieu of having an established leader.

[Darren]

This being the magical world that it is with so many analogues to the real world, is there anything in this world akin to a telephone? Alternately, are there any spells that allow instantaneous two-way communication that one can have a wizard cast for them?

[Jeff]

People with Spellcraft would know generally about these three spells:

You already know the Message spell.

Then there's Whispering Wind, which allows you to send a short message much farther.

Finally, there's Sending, which is much like Whispering Wind but has no ranger and can sometimes even reach across the planes of existence.

Beyond that, House Sivis message stations (found in almost every town and city) can provide these same type of services. You can have a page's worth of a written message sent to any other message station for 5gp.

Some powerful magic items might allow the more conversational speaking you're looking for, but you can't afford it.

[Josh]

Some powerful magic items might allow the more conversational speaking you're looking for, but you can't afford it.

Like a sending stone?

[Jeff]

The House Sivis speaking stones, you mean?

[Josh]

Yes, speaking stone.

[Jeff]

Hey, guys, if you're willing, I'd like to encourage you to try some of your own rolling. In the end I need to check all the math anyway, but you could do the basics.

For example, when Pel uses her want to shoot a Ray of Frost, Lara could do a 1d20 attack roll and add her ranged attack modifier.

When Grafth attacks with his axe, Josh does the 1d20 roll and adds his melee attack modifier for using his masterwork axe, etc.

You can leave the circumstantial modifiers to me (feats, conditions, spells, etc.), and I'll still put the numbers in when I post the outcome of the round. But if you do some of these basic rolls yourself, you'll know right when you're posting what rough kind of outcome you can expect.

Of course, if something that happens in the round messes up what you're action was going to be, then I'll just disregard your roll and use whatever's appropriate in its place. But I could keep those d20 rolls.

What do you think?

To remind you how:

Go here: krisinchico.brinkster.net/rolldata.asp
Then type in your character name:

Darren should type in "Kalarian" (not Kal)
Jeremy should type in "Goran"
Josh should type in "Grafth"
Lara should type in "Pel"
Joe should type in "Streko"

The outcome of the roll will automatically show up in the database for that name, which can be access from the links in your signatures.

And don't worry about getting something wrong. I'll compensate if you do.