Game Discussion

[Jeff]

I apologize if I'm sounding choosy. If I hadn't spent countless cumulative hours managing character sheets this wouldn't be much of a big deal. And although it makes sense for each player to manage his own character sheet, it's just not realistic. In tabletop games, that's a given. In play-by-post, and in a game where I know not everyone has mastered 4E rules, it actually puts more work on me if I have to correct stuff as we go. Which is why I have always wanted character sheets that both I and the player can access and edit equally.

I'm mostly after character sheets that look like 4e character sheets for DE. I tried to recreate the basic look of powers, for example, using colored highlights (green for at-wills, red for encounters, etc.) but it's still a bit unwieldy.

This was my second attempt (this is Kal's sheet in Google spreadsheet form): docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtwGqtveCtxmdDlkSDY2Vk5FTkdjVV9kYTF3ZXZKSFE&usp=sharing

At first it looks workable. I was trying to build a sheet wherein if you change an ability score modifier (such as when leveling up), it changes all the numbers accordingly. But I never quite finished it. Exhausting.

But it's the easy look and feel I'm after. MythWeaves doesn't need to be the answer, but a Word processing document is also much too clunky. I'm not sure what the answer is.

[Ken]

My thought is that we check each other's sheets. Yes, some of us are not 4E savvy; some of us are. If (for example) Darren levels up and modifies his sheet, and he then posts, "Hey, could somebody double-check my math?" I'd be happy to do so. And I'm sure others here would do the same for me.

Here's the deal: We're all friends, we all love this campaign and want it to return, we all greatly appreciate what you've done for us, AND we appreciate the fact that you're going to have other things occupying your mind very shortly!

We should be able to hold up our end and give you a breather when it comes to bookkeeping. And if we can't, well, shame on us. But if we CAN and if we all feel the current Word format is readable, then isn't the problem solved?

Does anyone disagree with anything I've said here? If so, please let me know and I shall activate the Cone of Silence.

[Dave B.]

I agree with what Ken is saying.

I certainly appreciate all the work you two are putting into figuring out the character sheet situation. If I weren't so computer-challenged, I would try to help. But, alas, my head is already spinning from reading the posts.

[Dave W.]

I'm for whatever works. It seems to me that we, the players, should be able to find a way to take on take some of the weight off the GM.

I can tell you a bit about Dropbox btw. I use it constantly. The files are constantly being synced. So if you and I share a file or folder, the Dropbox client on both our devices periodically checks to see if the file or folder has been changed. If it does, the changes are recorded at the Dropbox site (yes, it keeps source control for you; you can retrieve old versions if the files). When the clients on the other devices wake up and check the Dropbox site, it automatically updates it's copy.

Basically, if a file changes everyone gets updated automatically. My iPad, my iPhone, my PC at work and the one at home, your PC, your phone, your tablet... Everyone gets it automatically.

I actually don't know google docs very well. It seemed to be working, formatting is a bit odd.

[Jeff]

I'm willing to give it a shot. Ideally all character sheets would look alike in format. Hell, would it be easier to make a single document contain all character sheets?

Also, can we have a link posted (maybe in everyone's signature) that goes right to said file? That way I don't have to go into a new browser window or tab, go to Dropbox, then navigate to the file. I haven't yet figured out how you open a file and modify it within Dropbox (i.e. doing anything except uploading or downloading). Can you point me to how?

I've just uploaded a mostly empty Word document into a folder called Dark Echelon and I've shared the link with all of the main email addresses I have for you guys.

When I go and click on the document name (DE Character Sheets), it opens the file but it's not editable. The only way I can find to do that is to download it, then upload/replace it again, which is clunky. Can you point me to how I can modify the document, which then gets updated across the board for all of you?

[Darren]

I believe thr besy way to use Dropbox and accomplish what we're talking about is to access files via the app or Dropbox folder on your computer and not via the website. Then you are just editing the files in their native program and yhe Dropbox client is updating the files.

Also, if you want to deal with calculations of modifiers and things, wouldn't an Excel template be ideal? It can be a bit complicated to get your formulas right, but then you only have to check your math once instead of after every change.

[Jeff]

Darren, would you be able to build such a spreadsheet?

As for the Dropbox solution, I could do that on my home computer but not my work computer. So if we went that way, DE will progress probably 60% slower than if we find another way.

[Dave W.]

Yeah, I'm afraid the Dropbox solution isn't the right one for us

[Darren]

I agree that Dropbox may not be the best solution.

Yes, I could probably build a spreadsheet like that, but finding the time to actually do it might be difficult. I'd also need a better understanding of the maths involved for creating the formulas, so I'd probably need to work with someone on it. But if we determined it was the best way to proceed, I'd be willing to try that. I'm somewhat surprised that no template for this already exists. Seems like the kind of thing someone might have already created.

*time passes*

I did a very quick search and found this:
www.nzcomputers.net/heroforge/default4e.asp

I haven't looked at any of the files, but there could be something useful there.

[Jeff]

Please continue to bear with me, guys. I'm continuing to try to clear my plate as much as possible. And I've started to reread older posts/thread to start to catch up.

[Jeff]

It got weird in here, right? I guess we just have to get used to it...

Still no character sheet solutions.

[Darren]

Yeah, this new format is....I'm just gonna say it's pretty bad.

[Dave W.]

Jan 31, 2014 15:03:40 GMT -4 Darren said:

Yeah, this new format is....I'm just gonna say it's pretty bad.

Pretty terrible...

[Ken]

It's the new Proboards format - it's been optional for a while and I guess it's official now. I dealt with this in my other Proboards game; the default template is annoying, but I believe it's fairly customizable.

[Jeff]

I still haven't forgotten this. Clearing away my responsibilities (and preparing for the big one coming soon for me) has still been time-consuming. But as my gaming outlets dwindle, so does my yearning for DE to start up again. Rereading still commencing, character sheet optimization/access still pending (help welcome). Though customizing this board is probably a kind of low priority at this point.

[Ken]

Looking forward to it, Jeff! Customizing the board is fairly easy (based on my own experience), but yeah, that's way down the list of priorities.

As for the character sheet issue, I'm not sure what else to try, to be honest. Each of the solutions we tossed around so far seem to come with their own drawbacks. At least with the current approach, it's a "devil you know..." deal. But I'm open to other ideas.

[Mike]

I'd provided you with a couple of different character sheet options, Jeff - I'm guessing that none of them were up to snuff.

I'm also guessing that I'm not really understanding what it is that you're looking for, so I'll refrain from further investigating possible solutions.

[Jeff]

I know you guys must think I'm just whining. I appreciate your attempts so far.

The Excel sheets you found look great. For what they are, they're awesome. But they're just offline files. Using Dropbox or email to pass them back and forth is even more work. Those would be fine for actual tabletop play where everyone has a tablet or laptop in front of them. Our handicap is that we're all remote from each other and we come on these boards at different times. If Dropbox allowed me to open and save the live, online Excel file, that would have probably done the trick! But as we discovered, it won't work that way.

I want to get the character sheets, in whatever form they take, all on the same method and they need to be accessible easily online. Google docs are great for the fact that a single link makes any given sheet accessible to you or me. But their formatting is clunky. We can keep on doing it that way but it's sluggish and it still relies on me to handle them alone.

Or we just need a good process that we all work with. In order to get this game going again and keeping it going, I need help somehow. I need to offload some of the bookkeeping and I'm not sure how.

Right now, if Streko casts a cleric spell and it allows Kal to spend a healing surge, I need to go into Streko's word-processor-like Google doc and make note that the spell has been used, then go into Kal's to tick off one of his healing surges for the day. In tabletop play, I'd just point to both guys and have you make note of this on your character sheets in front of you. Easy!

Since you guys do want to stay with 4E (which requires much more bookkeeping than any other edition—even 3E, curiously), I've got to find a solution to this or our game is going to be super slow. I'm trying to return to it with more efficiency.

[Ken]

Okay, one thing I'll point out (which you may not have quite realized yet) is that, once you become a dad, your "free time" over the next year or so will be as fictional as a Dragonmark. So I obviously don't want to make this any harder or more stressful on you than it needs to be, and I really want to play this game again. It's safe to say that we all feel the same.

So, for the sake of argument and for allowing everyone to have a fair understanding of our options, Jeff, how would you propose converting our characters to D&D Next? It's one thing to say "Would you guys be interested..." and another thing to explain how that could happen in a satisfactory manner, especially for those classes that haven't gotten an official writeup in the new rules.

I like 4E, but hey, I also like you! And I know from playing D&D Next with you for two months at the store that the system is simple, fast, and fun. But I think more information is needed to make a truly informed decision as opposed to my initial reaction of "Don't you dare touch Belarin's powers!"

[Mike]

Feb 26, 2014 11:19:27 GMT -4 Ken said:

Okay, one thing I'll point out (which you may not have quite realized yet) is that, once you become a dad, your "free time" over the next year or so will be as fictional as a Dragonmark.

I just want to echo this. Take whatever free time you think you're going to have, and chop it down to a tiny fraction of that number. Free time is about to become a very valuable (and increasingly scarce) commodity for you. On the whole, it's a Very Good Thing (TM); but in terms of gaming, it means the simpler you can make things for yourself, the better.

[Jeff]

Right, a lot of this talk has been me being proactive about my days to come. I want to streamline DE so that I can actually play it again. If the mechanics become easier, then the writing becomes much easier.

I do think we could do a 5E conversion and I think everyone will ultimately find it easier to run with than 4E has been. Hit dice as nonmagical healing is easier to manager than healing surges per day, etc. But everyone would have to be on board this.

It would be a bit of work on my part initially but then later I think it would go smoother.

As for classes...sure, some things would change. But the good news is, I'm a big fan of homebrewing, in the notion that your D&D game is what you want it to be. It's not beholden to any book. So while the basis would be D&D Next based on the playtest ruleset, we could customize it to try to keep your character concepts intact.

Also, er....warlock does exist in the 5E playtest rules. But maybe we should make this board less public; then we could freely use the "alpha" rules that I have.

Of all the classes, it's really avenger and warlord that don't really exist. But I think we could customize a fighter to remake Condign, and we could customize a paladin, or a monk, or a multiclasses monk/paladin, to make Syrdan.

If you're all on board this, we could try this. I could try to keep as many of your power concepts intact, if reworked with new numbers. I could probably do the basic conversion of each character (maybe in the same Google doc or somesuch) and then have you come and look at them and tell me what you think.

[Darren]

Im okay with whatever game system you choose. I want it to be easy enough on you that we can actually play. As long as I get to keep a spell-wielding guy named Kal who has an awesome friend named Tangat, I'm good to go.

And no spellbooks. I should mention that, too. Book-learnin' is for nerds.

[Dave W.]

I would be perfectly happy converting to Next. I have a beta version from I think Sept. In general I'm more interested in story than tactical combat... though I do like a good combat from time to time. YMMV.

[Dave W.]

Oh, simul-post with Darren! To be more specific, I'm fine with any system; it woudn't have to be Next...

[Mike]

I'm not a fan of Next, but if that's the direction the game needs to head in order to continue, it's something I'll live with.

If we do move to Next, though, I guess I'd rather go back to playing Torhak or just make a new character. A lot of the fun of playing an Avenger for me was the fiddly tactical 4E stuff. Trying to cobble together a Next version of an Avenger is something that doesn't hold much interest for me.

[Joe]

I'm game for whatever needs to be done to get back to playing and to making Jeff's life easier. Whatever needs to be done. Best thing about clerics is that they're ALWAYS going to be around in one format or another.

[Dave B.]

I'm good with any system. I may be a little slow to catch on to a new system, but I get there eventually. I love playing D&D more for the characters, story and player interaction. The mechanics are the lowest priority for me. I've experienced all versions through 4E, so learning a new one ain't no skin off my nose. Double negative, but I just had to go there.

[Jeff]

I don't want to bring Torhak back in, for story reasons, and if we're making a new character, Mike, then we're sort of missing the point. The idea is to preserve the story.

So we're at an impasse. I think we can remake the avenger to a certain extent. That said, I don't want to keep things like minor actions, move actions, and standard actions. D&D Next has already evolved a bit out of some bad phases, and I'm mostly content with it now. And of course it will change again before official release. But I do like the simplicity of a move, and an action, and that's it. And most things that used to be minor actions are really just freebies.

Our battles would still involve a grid, probably, and if it comes to forced movement, I liked that part of 4E, too. I'd like to bring some of that over.

[Jeff]

By the way, I started to create a single character spreadsheet on Google docs. I think each character could be a separate sheet on the same file. With the simplified stats of 5E, I think this could work out nice. And we'd all just go to the one place.

[Brian]

I'm good with anything: D&D Next, Condign Lite, Pepsi Zero. Since I'm probably the least knowledgable player when it comes to rules, I can easily change around what I need to do. I might have a steep initial learning curve, but I will learn.

The whole point is to have fun, and that includes giving Jeff the latitude he needs as a new father to get the work done in between diaper blow-outs and late night feedings. (His, not the baby's. LOL).

Jeff, is there a reference book I should buy to help me with these new rules and to help modify Condign to fit in better with the new play?