Game Discussion

[Jeff]

Now that I see an end to the hiatus in sight, I also want to put another idea out there…

Before we pick things up with DE, I want to offer the possibility of either (1) converting this game over to D&D Next rules or (2) possibly changing the game altogether. Maybe even letting this campaign come to a close and actually start up a new game, with new characters, maybe even a new setting. I’m open to a lot of things right now, and can happily be swayed by public opinion. And by public I mean you.

Believe me, no one’s invested more time and energy into the story of Dark Echelon than me, so there’s a certain amount of remorse at letting it go. But it also has a lot of baggage. The entire plot got started with a whole different group—only Darren was in that original group—and I know the cast of NPCs has become extensive and probably confusing. At times even I have to dig through old posts to try and recall some of the chronology and details. Starting a new game clears the slate and lets us start fresh on all fronts. Plus, I think many of us can agree that character creation can be one of the most fun parts of D&D.

That said, don’t get me wrong: I love and would miss Adamant, Belarin, Kal, Condign, Streko, Shorak, and Syrdan! I’ve had a blast scorching them with spells and making them bleed. And also letting them explore my crazy version of Eberron.

Part of me likes the idea of dabbling with another setting, too. I love Eberron and always will, but I wonder what it would be like have a real Forgotten Realms campaign again, or possibly even look into Greyhawk (which I admit I’m not an expert on it, so it would be more based off the earliest books than anything since), or Ravenloft. Or hell, Planescape. All options are on the table.

Whether it’s with DE, Eberron, or an altogether new campaign, here are my thoughts for D&D Next rules: Obviously, I’ve been playing with them a lot in the last year. They’re much more streamlined and basic mechanics, and certainly combat, are a heck of a lot faster than 4th Edition rules. (Don’t grumble, Mike! You grumbled at 4E for a good long while in the early days!) It is, essentially, a much easier system to learn; if you’ve ever played 3rd edition, you already know how to play, it’s just a matter of adapting some elements from older and newer editions into a kind of hybrid. Plus, I’m always keen on houseruling when it comes to aspects of the D&D Next rules that we DON’T like. We’re not beholden to anything.

So anyway…don’t freak out. It’s just a thought, and I’d rather we come to a decision as a group—whether to keep things as they are or make a change. If the concenus is that you’d like to pick things up where we left off, in Eberron, in DE, and in 4th Edition, I’m okay with that, too. It’s a slower-moving game with 4E rules, I feel, and the combats are still fun, if weighty bastards.

Anyway, let’s hear some of your thoughts.

[Mike]

Sept 26, 2013 9:53:02 GMT -4 Jeff said:

(Don’t grumble, Mike! You grumbled at 4E for a good long while in the early days!)

Um ... okay?

[Ken]

My thoughts:

I ABSOLUTELY want to continue with these characters. It's an epic journey that deserves a much better ending than being left in Plot Limbo.

As for game system, I do like what I've seen of D&D Next, and gameplay is indeed much faster, & it is easy to learn. That said, Belarin's choice of powers is very much a statement of him, just as much as a set of clothes. Is there a way to replicate some of that flavor in Next? It seems that we'd have to piecemeal it together. And I'm obviously not thrilled that the Next warlock relies on Intelligence, not Charisma. (If Belarin had the patience to STUDY spells, he'd wouldn't have become a warlock!) ;-) But that at least we can houserule.

So what I'm saying is, I'm not opposed to incorporating D&D Next, so long as we can keep some of that 4E flair... and isn't that type of customizability supposed to be one of Next's key goals? ;-)

[Jeff]

The warlock doesn’t exist in the latest playtest rules, actually. (Except perhaps in the alpha rules, but I haven’t looked at those at all in a while and we probably shouldn’t use those here.) I think a certain amount of recasting could be done to keep the flavor of the rules, but they’d certainly be scaled down on sheer power—just as are all the monsters.

In Belarin's case, we'd basically just have to make him a mage first then alter it accordingly. Of course Cha would trump Int for him!

[Mike]

Personally, I would either like to continue with our current Eberron characters using 4E, or move on to a campaign with completely new setting/rules/characters.

The one option being presented that I don't particularly care for is converting the current game over to Next. Like Ken, I find that the 4E powers help to define the characters. Much of Syrdan's Avenger powers are heavily based on precise movement and positioning, and while I'm sure that we can cobble together something that approximates that in Next, I think a lot of what makes the character interesting to me will be lost in translation. (But if that's what the majority wants to do, I'm still okay with that - it's just the least appealing option to me.)

[Dave W.]

This is one of those wishy-washy posts I'm famous for...

So, I'm one of the newbies in the campaign; I'm fine with starting from scratch. I have a few hundred voices in my head waiting to become characters. That's no a problem.

Otoh, I do like Adamant and don't really feel done with him. Recent (?) events were leading him to become a full blown cleric next level and I was looking forward to that.

So I'm really no help with the start over/keep going side of things.

Regarding rule set, I'm honestly not a huge fan of 4e. But it wasn't the rules that kept me looking forward to each post; it was all of you magnificent writers! I'd play 4e, Next, BRP, Savage Worlds... Heck I'd even play GURPS... with you guys!

So that's no real help either except to say, hell yes I'm in!

[Joe]

I am also heavily invested in Streko, mostly because this guy is REAL to me. He is my friend and I love seeing where he will take me next. He came into my life just as his namesake had voluntarily left it. Both deserve(d) better.

I also believe that DE is/was a wonderful universe to inhabit, and shouldn't be invalidated by simply being dropped in favor of its new matrix.

As to setting changes, as long as there is a logical transition from DE to the new setting, I'm good with any change or rule set that becomes instituted. Both Streko and I will learn to adapt.

And won't that be part of the fun?

[Dave B.]

Hey Guys,

I would rather not switch mechanics midstream. I am torn about staying with DE or starting something new. Both options are okay with me. Saying that, maybe we could try to bring this chapter of DE to a satisfying close for the short term, with the plan to start up a new campaign, rules and characters after that.

Whatever the consensus, I just want to continue playing D&D with all of you.

[Darren]

As you mentioned, Jeff, I've been with this game since the beginning, which means I've been playing Kal for...how many years now? A lot, however many it is. I am really and truly attached to him and would not be keen on letting him go.

And as Mike said, switching mechanics is going to mess with the flavor of these characters. Remember when we switched the characters from 3.5 to 4? Kal changed an awful lot at that point, and it took me a while to get used to him. Like Ken and Mike said, he's starting to grow into his current powers and they are beginning to finally define him as a character. Switching mechanics would be a lot like starting over.

If we want to move these characters into a new setting, I can live with that. If you can show me that new mechanics will keep the flavor of the characters in tact, I'm okay with that, too. But I definitely want to keep Kal (and Tangat!) around....

[Jeff]

No way was I going to entertain the idea of bringing these characters into another setting! Didn't mean to imply that. That would be...too Spelljammery.

Well, it sounds like the people have spoken! DE will continue as it was. My personal opinion is that 4E holds things back a bit when it comes to combat. The flavor is great, and clearly, as you’ve seen 90% of this game isn’t combat and would move the same pace regardless of what system we use. I find the battles to be a heck of a lot of work. Even in my tabletop 4E games, a single combat usually eats up half of a session—I’ve never had one lasting less than two hours long. Often times a single battle is a single 4-hour session. I guess it doesn't help that I always have large groups, too.

Perhaps I just need to come up with a better way to manage it. Hmmm.

Anyway, so we'll keep on keeping on. But I could absolutely use some help finding a better way to manage character sheets. I started to devise a Google doc spreadsheet, but it's become too much work to tie it all together. That myth-weavers site looks good but the character sheet is still clunky. And ideally, I'd want to find a better die-roller system. Can you guys help me look?

[Mike]

Sept 27, 2013 9:33:34 GMT -4 Jeff said:

Even in my tabletop 4E games, a single combat usually eats up half of a session—I’ve never had one lasting less than two hours long. Often times a single battle is a single 4-hour session. I guess it doesn't help that I always have large groups, too.

This has always been my main complaint about 4E, FWIW. I generally like the game, but when you mention my "grumbling" about 4E, this is at the heart of those grumbles, particularly for tabletop sessions. When you have limited time at a table, constant 2-hour combats is a killer. (I've played enough - and I think Ken would agree - that there isn't a good way to speed it up without some serious rules tweakage.)

I'm glad to see that DE will continue. I'll just say that if you were harboring a strong urge to DM something else - if an online D&D Next Forgotten Realms campaign was something you really, really wanted to do - then I'd still recommend doing that instead. I've found that it's hard DMing something long-term if you'd rather be running a different game. But if you genuinely have no preference one way or another, I'm happy to be a part of our existing DE campaign once more!

[Jeff]

I admit that starting fresh in a more streamlined rules system is enormously appealing to me right now. There’s a lot more research to do to pick things up with DE, and once we get going, we’ll still have the same weighty combats as before, but I never regard any game as the DM’s. It’s the entire group’s collective experience, and everyone needs to be having fun or it’s not doing its job.

I’m invested in DE, too…I must have written several novels’ worth of writing in this by now. It’s a full-fledged online serial.  But yeah, it’s encouraging to hear you all want to continue with your characters.

At the end of the day, story and character-building is my favorite part of the game, and so I’m quite happy with that aspect of what we’ve got going on in this game.

[Ken]

Jeff: Cool! One thing I meant to add: Eberron. I love the setting, partially because it was so new to me when I joined this. Many of us (I know Dave W, certainly) have had a lot of experience with the Realms, perhaps excessively so. I really enjoy how different and exciting Eberron is, and I don't want to leave it just yet.

Regarding 4E combat, Quinn Murphy (one of the smartest RPG bloggers out there) had a few excellent comments here:
at-will.omnivangelist.net/2011/01/the-speed-of-choice-the-real-reason-your-4e-fights-are-so-damn-slow/

Check out the "Similar posts" at the bottom, too. To be fair, speed is not as much of an issue in online games, where you literally have a day to decide what to do, but there may be ways to reduce the number of rounds. That said, our big combats have been OH MY DEAR GOD exciting, so I've never minded the number of rounds as long as they've been that much fun.

As for dice roller, you don't like Invisible Castle? I really don't know if there's a more suitable one out there, but I'll look.

Lastly, I vow - and perhaps we all should - to have Belarin completely statted up on Myth Weavers by the end of October. (If someone has a better option for online sheets, give a yell.) Certainly, there's no reason for you to continue to shoulder the responsibility of maintaining character sheets alone.

Ooooh, another thought: Copying our Google sheets into Word docs, and posting the set into a shared Dropbox folder...?

[Jeff]

Ken, that would be super helpful, if you could handle transferring your character stats. Maybe we should just have you do it first, and if you feel comfortable with the format (can you bookmark that specific page so we can access it with a single click?), then we’ll give it a go for everyone.

[Brian]

Late to the party again....

Staying with DE and the 4E rules is fine; I have no idea what the Next rules say anyway. I'm not as involved in the D&D environment outside of DE, so most of what you're saying about rules and such is gibberish to me.

All I can add is that this game--and you wonderful people--make the experience what it is. Whether is was with new characters or our ubercool DE ones, simply gaming with you is a treat.

[Jeff]

Has anyone had a chance to look at the character sheet options? That's probably the main logistical side I'll need help with.

In any case, here's an update: Tonight I'm finishing up the D&D Encounters game I was running, so that'll be off my plate.

I've decided to toss my name in the hat (I think) for The Dark Crystal Author Quest (a contest to write a prequel novel)—because Jim Henson!—but that'll only be occupying me leading up to the end of December.

So I'm thinking sometime in January we can maybe try and resurrect DE!

[Mike]

Dec 3, 2013 12:07:27 GMT -4 Jeff said:

I've decided to toss my name in the hat (I think) for The Dark Crystal Author Quest (a contest to write a prequel novel)—because Jim Henson!—but that'll only be occupying me leading up to the end of December.

Hah. I'm working on an entry for that as well.

[Ken]

I know I've dropped the ball on following up re: formatting the character sheets. Sorry, guys. Jeff, I had mentioned to you the idea of taking the existing Google Docs and creating Word templates based on that. I still intend to do that, since I think it's a cleaner alternative to the Myth Weaver sheets.

If anyone out there has a black belt in Word-Fu and wants to suggest something, go right ahead!

[Mike]

Would editable PDF character sheets work? I haven't found any Word files that I particularly like online for CS, but there's some pretty decent PDFs. They'd probably take a bit to fill out at the get-go, but after that, maintenance should be fairly simple.

[Joe]

I like this idea.

[Jeff]

I'm totally happy to give this a try. Can someone take a stab at it with their character?

[Jeff]

So I'm going to start doing some rereading and catching up. Meanwhile, I really will need help sorting out character sheet stuff.

[Brian]

I'm sorry, but I can't help with the character sheet issue. My next book is due Feb 1st, and I'm busting butt just to get it done in time. Once the format is decided, though, I can help transition Condign's info.

[Ken]

I'm nearly done with my Word template. I will post it in the next day. I can't help with the Adobe alternative, though.

[Dave W.]

Nothing useful to add, just saying hi... Hi!

[Ken]

Okay, take a look at this and let me know if it's useful. I've taken Jeff's Word character sheet and modified it to be a template. The most attractive thing about it is that you should be able to copy a lot of stuff from your existing character sheet and paste it directly into this.

Please download and give it a whirl:
drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx-i_zWyqOQAUEd2Um84Z0VoNTQ/edit?usp=sharing

UPDATE: Ah, screw that. I see immediately that Google strips out much of the formatting. I'll email it to the group.

Then we need to decide where to put all of these when we're done. A Dropbox folder for our group seems like the best option. I can set that up and send out invites if that's acceptable.

[Jeff]

Thanks, Ken. Thing is, I'm struggling to understand how Dropbox would work for us.

Here's the thing about DropBox. It's set up as a good way to exchange files. You can't just open the file and edit it (therefore it gets edited for anyone accessing it, like a Google doc). So if I wanted to go an update how many healing surges Belarin has for the day, I'd have to download the file, edit it, then reupload. That's kind of unwieldy.

Google docs are still the idea location, because they are live documents hosted in the same place (not needing to downloaded/uploaded to make changes), but their format is what's not working great with a character sheet. It's that format I'm trying to find a way to make easier, visually and practically.

[Ken]

No, my understanding from using Dropbox is that you CAN edit the file IN Dropbox! No need to download and repost.

I'll double-check tonight, but I'm 95% sure that I've recently done exactly that in Dropbox.

[Jeff]

That's good news. But it's still just a recreation of what Google docs is doing. It's the look and structure of the character sheet content that I'm trying to find an easier way to manage. Using Dropbox won't really change that, you know?

[Ken]

I'm not sure that there IS an ideal format to be honest. Yeah, Myth Weavers can automatically update modifiers, but it's not 4E-friendly, in my opinion, and isn't particularly attractive.

Can you describe what you find particularly troublesome about the format? I'm sure we can come up with a solution.

As for updating the sheets when we level up, that certainly shouldn't be your responsibility. We, the players, should take that on, just as we would if we were playing in person every week. As the DM, you should check the math, but you shouldn't do the actual grunt work of updating.