Chapter 10: Q&A / Discussions

[Brian]

Sorry for not posting. I've had a two day headache, which was still raging this morning.

Yeah, Darren. I say let him go. We don't know who he is or what assets he has in the city. We could easily walk into a trap and end up as Emerald Claw zombies. (And I'm not saying he was an Emerald Claw agent.)

He'll get his someday.

[Jeff]

Team B is currently poised for a skill challenge with these dwarves.

As it stands, we're looking at a basic Bluff check with two assists (Belarin's words with Adamant's remark, and Shorak's emote). If you guys are okay with just that, then we'll roll and you might be able to learn a little something.

If you want to try for a skill challenge (which requires multiple full-on skill checks, at least one for each of you, and not just assists), then you can learn substantially more and some XP.

These dwarves aren't the type to just dish out info easily. So if you want to work at this a little, I'll need some more from you.

Up to you.

[Ken]

Dave and Dave,

Yeah, I agree that a skill challenge would be worth a shot, if you have skills that can assist. Dave B, I think this is your first time with a skill challenge -- it's one of the cooler (and admittedly harder to grasp) concepts in the 4E rules.

See here for Jeff's description and the details of a skill challenge we did a couple of years ago.

Off the top of my head, Diplomacy, Insight, Religion, Streetwise and possibly even History might be good skills to use along with Belarin's Bluff attempt. It's up to you.

[Dave W.]

What we can't just wack them with swords?

I'm game for a skill challenge. But I'm having a little mental difficulty with Adamant in his role as bodyguard. It doesn't seem right to jump in on Nerrin's business conversation. I've. been trying to couch things from a security perspective.

I'm thinking Adamant's first skill check might be insight to try to find a good angle or at least to see how Belarin is doing.

So the example showed a whole initiative thing happening. How do we start?

[Dave B.]

I think a skill challenge would be fun, if for no other reason than I've never experienced it before.

Shorak's best skills are Streetwise & Bluff.

My first question is what are we trying to accomplish with the Dwarves?

I wouldn't mind some insight on how Shorak should proceed without overstepping his role as Nerrin's servant. I'm much more adept at this when playing in person, real time. My problem is I lack confidence in my writing skills, which is why my posts tend to be short some of the time.

And Jeff- any extra Xend'rik info you can throw my way to assist would be much appreciated.

[Jeff]

Cool, guys. So, where combat is an exercise in strategy (mostly), skill challenges are an exercise in raw creativity. In theory, you can use any skill you deem worthy. Now, skill challenges are generally set up with particular skills in the DM's mind as being the foremost ones (and the DM isn't required to even announce what those are): the ones that either the most likely to yield good results or the easiest and most fitting for the situation.

But the important thing is that there's no clear rule about which skills to use. If you can find a creative, but realistic application for the Athletics skill in the midst of a social-based challenge, more power to you. For the most part, if you pick a skill that's kind of off the mark for the challenge, then you'd have to roll really well for it to pay off.

And no matter what skill it is, you've got to back it up with words or actions. No two-liner posts'll do for this.

But mostly, just have fun with it. It's a coordinated effort on all our parts.

But you do have to be assertive about it. You have to essentially say, 'this is the skill I'm going to use it" and then post in-character actions or words that apply it. Then that skill gets accounted for, for good or ill. You just need to get four successful checks before you get two failed checks. What's success and failure only I know.

If you beat the challenge, you'll get some info and some good XP. If you fail the challenge but put in some effort, you'll still get some XP.

Happy to throw some Xen'drik/Stormreach lore your way, Dave B., but I would need to know what direction you want to go. Feel free to let me know what angle you want to take in Shorak's private board.

And Dave W., Insight is a perfectly valid skill choice for something like this. Insight doesn't always have to mean that you're just trying to gauge info from someone; it can be Adamant trying to be insightful about someone else when he says something to them...and the check is to see if he touches a nerve or is compelling about it.

[Jeff]

Streetwise is definitely a smart way to go for Shorak.

A reminder about the more obvious ones for social encounters:

• Characters use the Bluff skill to make what’s false seem true, what’s outrageous seem plausible, and what’s suspicious seem ordinary. A character makes a Bluff check to fast-talk a guard, con a merchant, gamble, pass off a disguise, fake a piece of documentation, or mislead in some other way.

• Creatures use the Diplomacy skill to influence others using tact, subtlety, and social grace. (Monsters rarely make Diplomacy checks.) Make a diplomacy check to change opinions, inspire good will, haggle with a merchant, demonstrate proper etiquette and decorum, or negotiate a deal in good faith.

• The Insight skill is used to discern intent and decipher body language during social interactions. Characters use the skill to comprehend motives, to read between the lines, to get a sense of moods and attitudes, and to determine how truthful someone is being. (Monsters rarely use Insight.)
Insight is used to oppose Bluff checks and as the social counterpart to the Perception skill. The skill can also be used to gain clues, to figure out how well a social situation is going, and to determine if someone is under the influence of an outside force.
When a creature uses Insight, it is making a best guess about another creature’s motives and truthfulness. Insight is not an exact science or a supernatural power; it represents the ability to get a sense of how a person is behaving.

• An adventurer can make an Intimidate check to influence others through hostile actions, overt threats, or deadly persuasion.

But those summations are not the limits of those skills, just the basis.

[Ken]

Jan 5, 2012 21:55:48 GMT -4 Dave B. said:

My first question is what are we trying to accomplish with the Dwarves?

Great question! ;D Well, since the three of us have slight leeway to meta-game here, I'd say that the goal is two-fold:

1) Get the dwarves to buy into the thought that we have something that expeditions might be interested in. As (apparently) members of House Kundarak, they're hoping to rent out bodyguards to some of the expeditions. So while they may not be assembling an expedition themselves, they're in a great position to relay info about our map to folks who ARE searching for the Eye.

2) Pull out any details -- ANY -- about Gerhest. The older dwarf said, "The quest is a fool's errand, aye, but Gerhest is a real and dangerous place. There will be much death, regardless." What does he mean by "dangerous"? It doesn't sound like he believes in the Eye, but he might know more about Gerhest than Larest.

[Darren]

I will also remind you (since in-game this discussion only happened yesterday) that part of the plan includes Kalarian appearing as an interested buyer in order to make the map appear more legitimate. And Kal and friends are certainly doing a good job of stirring things up and making a name for themselves.

[Ken]

Thanks, Darren. Yep, I've got that figured in. Belarin doesn't want to play his hand too heavily yet since he still has to go shopping for the supplies to, ah, finish the map. But if the situation warrants it, then Belarin, Adamant, or Shorak could mention that several people have already made appointments with Nerrin to see the map -- with Kalarian first in line. It'll help negate any requests from the dwarves that Nerrin display the map here and now. They'll have to get in line. Nerrin is a stickler for process.

[Dave W.]

Which has the bodyguard studying you, in turn, with greater scrutiny. The latter is looking for a problem, a reason to physically intervene and stop this conversation between commoner and noble.

The old dwarf steps forward and inclines his head and extends a hand to Belarin—the bodyguard places a hand on the handle of his hammer at the same time.

see now I want to have Adamant intimidate the guard just to say you call that professional? But that doesn't seem like Adamant.  

A post is coming I'm writing it now...

[Ken]

Jeff, I just edited my last post to add the Bluff check.

[Brian]

Still, Kal holds his position, arms folded, choosing to play the role of a lord allowing his servant to deal with a distraction so that he can be on his way.

Darren, if I remember correctly, we were specifically warned NOT to irritate the Iron Guard. Kal may be arrogant, but I haven't known him to be unwise to the point of recklessness.

[Darren]

He'll go along. I just want to see how this plays out. He's kind of waiting for Condign to have to make a big deal out of it, so that he can make a BIGGER deal out of it.

[Dave W.]

Jan 8, 2012 9:27:08 GMT -4 Jeff said:

You just need one more success. Feel free to discuss who should make the next skill check; the only thing is, in this instance, you can't choose a skill that's already been used. Wargon d'Kundarak is a tough nut to crack; he needs a different approach.

On the face of it, Nerrin would be the obvious choice. He's really the only one who should be talking to the high-muckety-muck dwarf.

Tossing in the new skill requirement is an evil gm trick I can only assume was accompanied by cackling.

So I think ken gets first right of refusal. If he can't come up with another approach then we can discuss who goes.

[Brian]

Oh, all right.

[Jeff]

If Condign intends on retrieving Kal, make a post about it. Remember, no implied actions here at DE!

[Dave B.]

I have to agree with Dave. Ken should be the one to try to close this out.

Considering how highly connected the old Dwarf seems to be, would Diplomacy be the next skill to try? Ken, what do you think?

[Ken]

Yeah, Belarin will try to wrap this up. Diplomacy does sound like the best bet, Dave, although Belarin's modifier is ehhh. If I can figure out a good way to use the Arcana skill, I'll go for that instead (and considering what's being discussed, it may not be that far of a stretch).

[Dave W.]

Well you've got the fantastical treasure opening, maybe you let it slip that you know a bit about the arcane artifact?

I think you may want to suggest somewhere else for the discussion of details as well... The elder dwarf seems a bit nervous going on about it in the tailor's...

[Jeff]

If you go for Arcana, better make his dialogue good. 😉 And as truly applicable to what's being discussed as you can get it! It's a little bit of a stretch.

[Ken]

Dave W, Jeff: Agree with you regarding discussion of details and the high bar to pull this off using Arcana. Alas, my back went out a few hours ago (a VERY rare occurrence that never occurred pre-parenthood) and I'm in no shape to think creatively at the moment. I'll have something more coherent and hopefully quite clever for Belarin in the morning.

[Jeff]

No worries, Ken. Take care of yourself first, be smart and witty later.

[Dave W.]

Jan 9, 2012 0:15:01 GMT -4 Ken said:

. Alas, my back went out a few hours ago  (a VERY rare occurrence that never occurred pre-parenthood)

Sure blame it on parenthood... Funny coincidence that pre-parenthood you were also several years younger, my friend. Just sayin'.  

[Ken]

Not a good roll on Diplomacy.

[Dave B.]

Any chance the DC wasn't too high or perhaps there are some unknown bonuses? I will attempt a nonverbal assist. See if the DM goes for it.

[Ken]

Dave W, Dave B: Okay, guys, we have one more shot at this. If you don't mind, here are a couple of suggestions since you haven't been through skill challenges before:

History: Cite an example of House Kundarak or Xen'drik history where someone took a chance and reaped a huge profit.

Religion: Adamant could quote a similar passage about bold choices from Dol Arrah's scripture. Granted, the Kundarak may think it's strange to hear religious commentary from a warforged bodyguard, but that'll be easy enough to explain.

Thievery: This one is a stretch. Shorak could politely play down the perceived value of any map of Gerhest itself, saying that he's heard of such maps before and they've all been proven to be fakes -- he would even describe some forgery techniques (as long as he avoids mentioning Belarin's personal tricks, which he would know at this point, since he and Belarin have collaborated on the mapmaking). The one problem with that would be that Nerrin has already feigned ignorance about Gerhest, so it might sound odd if Nerrin's hireling has more info than Nerrin himself. He could also mention a couple of Stormreach rogues who have been guilty of such offenses in the past, although that might be getting too close to Streetwise again.

[Dave W.]

Not bad suggestions Ken, but History (+2) and Thievery (+1) are both out for Addy. Frankly I think Religion (+7) is a long shot (if I was the GM I'd make that DC a bit high) though it may be the best we got.

It seems reasonable that we can't try Diplomacy(+7) now that it's been used.

I could try an Intimidate (+14) but if it fails I think we'll end up with an enemy instead of a disinterested party. That would be bad.

Dave B, you got anything? I'm willing to try Religion if we don't have a better thought.

[Jeff]

Intimidate can be used creatively. In theory, you can threaten someone theoretical, not necessarily the dwarves. They already have heard Adamant sound exasperated for having his advice to Nerrin. Who knows?

[Dave B.]

For obvious reasons, thievery is Shorak's best role, but I expect it would be a pretty high DC. History and religion are both +5. Although, Shorak knowing more about Gerhest than Nerrin shouldn't be to odd. He is a local hire and there is no reason for him to offer that information readily.

I'm a little wary of trying to make another roll right now. With my track record with the dice roller, I'm due for a bad roll. Let me think about it. I can't think of a way to spin it at the moment.

If you think Shorak should go for it, any advice would be greatly appreciated.