Chapter 6: Q&A / Discussion

[Ken]

Yikes!

Hey, here's one thing: In my last post, I said that if either cursed foe -- "Belarin's ghoul" or Ringo ;D -- died, then his warlock's curse would kick in. As soon as the beetle is slain, Belarin immediately teleports to a spot 2 squares south of Syrdan's current position (i.e., 2 squares east of the apparition).

At least it gets me off the ghoul's menu.

[Jeff]

Feh! I was thinking that the whole time, and then when the beetle dropped, I just forgot. Fixin' it...

[Brian]

Since Kal goes first, I'll wait for the ruling from Jeff on Kal's shift. If Kal does shift away from the ghoul, then I'll edit the action so that Streko gets the basic melee attack on the ghoul.

Provided we didn't kill it already. ;D

[Dave W.]

Did I say a while back that these ghouls were wussy? The Junior Senator from Pennsylvania would like to revise and extend his remarks ... Jinkies!!!

[Jeff]

Since Kal goes first, I'll wait for the ruling from Jeff on Kal's shift. If Kal does shift away from the ghoul, then I'll edit the action so that Streko gets the basic melee attack on the ghoul.

This is entirely up to you guys. Darren, mainly. Since Kal goes first, yes, he'll have moved away from the ghoul and probably can't take advantage of Condign's power.

So Brian, you could provide me with a contingency, if you want, of what you'd do in that case. But I do feel bad: all your allies keep moving away, rendering some of Condign's warlord tricks much less useful. This bears some discussion, going forward, on party tactics in general.

Did I say a while back that these ghouls were wussy? The Junior Senator from Pennsylvania would like to revise and extend his remarks ... Jinkies!!!

Make no assumptions about the bad guys. Besides, when you make an assumption, you make an ass out of "u" and "mption."

[Jeff]

Actually, for the time being, Brian, here's what I recommend: Since a lot of Condign's actions directly affect an ally, giving them a bonus to hit or a free hit, you could provide a backup power as well. Not something you have to calculate a new roll for. Just something I can use as a backup. For example you could say something like:

Minor action: Inspiring word
Move action: East 3 squares
Standard action: Hammer and anvil on the ghoul in front of Condign [insert attack roll and damage roll].
Alternative: Brash assault. [same roll will apply]

Just a thought. It's an interesting dynamic we're seeing with a warlord (leader role) mixed up in a party filled with mostly strikers (except Streko, who is also a leader, and Adamant, who is a defender). Strikers tend to run around and hit one thing at a time, and don't usually keep still, which makes it frustrating for warlords to work with.

"STOP moving!" a flustered warlord wants to scream at his companions. "You! You could have hit that guy for free just now! Gah! And you...would you just stop....?"



Dave:

Move Action: This is the tricky one. I want to toss Divine Mettle (minor action; target gets a save with +4) at someone, I'm just not sure whom. If Belarin has failed his save the he's the target. Second choice is Varna. After that someone who needs it.

Tricky indeed. I know you can turn a standard action into another move action. Can you turn a move action into another minor action? Have to look for that one. Do you know, Ken?

[Dave W.]

Jun 4, 2010 8:11:05 GMT -4 Jeff said:

Tricky indeed. I know you can turn a standard action into another move action. Can you turn a move action into another minor action? Have to look for that one. Do you know, Ken?

On page 268 there's a sidebar "Substituting Actions". Basically you can always downgrade... You can sub a standard to a move or minor; you can sub a move to a minor. In the list they provide, this is option B: a standard and two minor actions.

[Darren]

Jeff, I edited my post to say it, but basically what I'm not sure of is this....with Sorcerous Blade Channeling, Kal can use ranged attacks as melee attacks. But if he uses a ranged attack on someone he's not standing next to, does he provoke an AoE from the person he IS standing next to? If he doesn't, then Kal has no reason to shift and would therefore be able to get the free attack from Condign.

[Ken]

Dave, thanks for posting the bit about "downgrading" actions.

Jun 4, 2010 9:33:24 GMT -4 Darren said:

Jeff, I edited my post to say it, but basically what I'm not sure of is this....with Sorcerous Blade Channeling, Kal can use ranged attacks as melee attacks. But if he uses a ranged attack on someone he's not standing next to, does he provoke an AoE from the person he IS standing next to? If he doesn't, then Kal has no reason to shift and would therefore be able to get the free attack from Condign.

You mean if Kal were using his feat to turn a ranged power into a melee attack? Obviously, Jeff has final say, but since -- by definition of the feat -- your attack is now a melee attack, using it shouldn't provoke Opportunity attacks from adjacent foes. BUT the target still has to be adjacent to you, just as if you were stabbing at it with the dagger (melee reach 1).

(Oh yeah, I've been seeing a few folks use "AoE" to describe Opportunity attacks. "AoE" = Area of Effect. "AOO" was a v3.5 abbreviation for Attack of Opportunity, and I guess the similarity is one reason that 4E shifted to "Opportunity attacks." )

[Jeff]

Darren, I really need you to make the call on Kal's action, not me. He's either shifting 1 square west then using Lightning Orb on the ghoul to his south, or he's staying put and doing something else.

As Ken points out, Sorcerous Blade Channeling is only used to turn a ranged spell into a melee attack spell on an adjacent target. Essentially, Kal has to be close enough to stab his enemy with the dagger; it's spell delivery by stabbing.

I'll be heading into NJ for a day to visit grandparents tomorrow; if you can let me know what he's deciding to do, I'll try and post in the morning before I go, but no promises!

[Darren]

Jeff, I wasn't looking for you to make the call. I was looking for clarification on whether or not using the spell on the other ghoul while standing next to a different one would allow an AoO (I don't know why I didn't realize I was using the wrong letter), and now that I have that answer, I can decide what to do.

And what I will do is shift the one square. Sorry, Brian, but I think if I don't and end up getting hit, then I'll also get immobilized and not be able to use that action point to perform the second action.

[Darren]

Hey, Jeff. I'm trying to figure out exactly how Thunder Leap works. It says that it's range is Close Burst 1, and that it's primary attack is Charisma vs. Fortitude with a damage of 2d6+Charisma. Then it says that the Effect is "You jump a number of squares equal to your speed + your Charisma modifier (total 10 squares). This movement does not provoke opportunity attacks. Then make a secondary attack." It then says the secondary target is "each creature in burst" with a secondary attack of Charisma vs. Fortitude.

So here's what I'm not too clear on. Is there an initial Close Burst 1 attack at the starting location, and a second Close Burst 1 attack at the destination? Or is it just one attack at the destination? I'm kind of reading it to the be the former, but I'm not too sure.

[Dave W.]

Hey Jeff, I think I maybe confusing you with moving my Divine Challenge (DC for short) around. Just to clarify, I can only have one DC at any one time. If I DC a new person the old one goes away.

So in round 3 I DC'd the beetle and did an attack that included it. On round 4 I switched the dc to the apparition; as I did that it removed the dc from the beetle. On the latest round, since I was immobile, I couldn't attack or move adjacent to the apparition, so my dc would have faded (and as an added penalty for letting it fade, I wouldn't be allowed to issue a new dc in my next turn). Therefore I switched it to the adjacent ghoul.

That ghoul is now dead so I currently have no one dc'd. I could dc someone this round but seeing as I'm back to being stuck in place I probably won't.

[Ken]

Jun 5, 2010 10:49:16 GMT -4 Darren said:

Hey, Jeff. I'm trying to figure out exactly how Thunder Leap works. It says that it's range is Close Burst 1, and that it's primary attack is Charisma vs. Fortitude with a damage of 2d6+Charisma. Then it says that the Effect is "You jump a number of squares equal to your speed + your Charisma modifier (total 10 squares). This movement does not provoke opportunity attacks. Then make a secondary attack." It then says the secondary target is "each creature in burst" with a secondary attack of Charisma vs. Fortitude.

So here's what I'm not too clear on. Is there an initial Close Burst 1 attack at the starting location, and a second Close Burst 1 attack at the destination? Or is it just one attack at the destination? I'm kind of reading it to the be the former, but I'm not too sure.

I just read the description myself and, wow, yeah, that is surprisingly confusing. My unofficial thought is that, yes, it would be your first description, Darren: a Close Burst 1 at "launch" and destination. The flavor text would seem to support that, too.

[Dave W.]

On Thunder Leap, I think Ken's right. By the book a secondary attack has the same range as the first attack unless it says otherwise (pg 59). And secondary attacks take place after the first attack is resolved, so the leap part would have happened.

So the first attack resolves against all creatures w/i 1 sq, then there's a jump and another, second attack vs everyone w/i 1 sq of your new location.

Saddly it is every creature, so allies are affected as well.

[Jeff]

Thunder Leap. I read it like this: Kal does a burst 1 attack, which doesn't provoke. This damages those around him (enemies and allies), if it hits. Regardless of success, Kal then jumps up to 10 squares. Where he lands, another burst 1 occurs, which can damage and push creatures away. Two bursts in the same starting location doesn't make sense and, I agree, doesn't mesh up with the flavor text anyway.

Dave, yeah, Divine Challenge is confusing the heck out of me. Challenging one enemy but then attacking another actually feels rather power gamery, which I don't think is your intent. I realize that if you don't follow through with an attack, the Divine Challenge washes off, but I'd need to figure out precisely when it ends.

[Dave W.]

Divine Challenge is a tad confusing.

When I mark someone with divine challenge they stay marked  until one of the following occurs:

• the opponent is dead
• I invoke divine challenge with a different target
• I fail to engage the opponent.

Being engaged with an opponent means I either attack him on my turn or I end my turn adjacent to him.

So I can dc an opponent and not attack him provided I end my  turn next to him. But if you look back I think you'll find that I've always attacked the marked guy. Sometimes that's been a ranged attack but that counts.

[Darren]

Thanks for the clarification.

Yeah, Kal has a lot of powers that affect enemies and allies equally, so it's been kind of tough to use a bunch of them.

[Mike]

Question - is there still supposed to be a ghoul on the map next to Syrdan?

[Jeff]

D'oh! Nope. I'll get rid of that. ;D

[Dave W.]

I'm sort of sad. The Apparition is dead. I had started writing up this long monologue about "this tomb ain't big enough for the two of us, pardner".

Well maybe later...

[Dave W.]

Btw, Jeff, I don't think you've given adamant the 13 hp from the second wind.

[Jeff]

Huh! I did try and change it, but I'm learning sometimes that my signature updates don't always take. Have to be careful of that. Anyway, it's fixed now.

[Darren]

For whatever it's worth, everyone, it is Kal's intention to be diplomatic with the ghost lady. And he DOES have a high Diplomacy score, even if he doesn't always exercise it.

[Ken]

You go, boy! ;D

Belarin is content to play the role of arcane consiglieri during this conversation while doing his Arcana check. (Of course, others should feel free to use their own dialogue to potentially aid Kal and add a +2 to his final Diplomacy check. )

[Darren]

Now I'm imagining Kal and Belarin playing out the mob meeting scene from Analyze This.

"You want a fresh one?"

[Mike]

Well, that was a little disappointing.

Maneuvered all the way over to the apparition to fight it ... and Streko somehow beats Syrdan to the punch. Oh well.

[Brian]

I'm all for Kal giving it the Diplomacy try. So we have the highest chance of success, I wanted to mention that Condign's Diplomacy modifier is +9. Either way, Condign will aid Kal in his diplomatic solution. ;D

[Brian]

Kal:

Let the Diplomacy begin!

Darren, you rock! ;D

[Dave W.]

Jun 7, 2010 21:49:26 GMT -4 Joe said:

I just spent half an hour typing a post that was beautiful and poignant and my GODDANGED internet craps out on me...I am so pissed off right now.

Don't know if this helps, but I ususally write my posts in a text editor and then cut-and-paste it into the reply. Partly that's because I can see it better (the message window is kind of cramped), but it also lets me save and stop if I have to go take care of something in the middle of posting.