The State of Dark Echelon

[Jeff]

Hey, gents. I'm going to ask you for some super-honest opinions.

I feel like—and have been feeling like—activity and general participation in this game has been waning. Over the years I've stated again and again, in different ways and circumstances, that I only want players here who want to be here. So I'm creating this poll—but more important, this discussion thread—to try and address it, so I can make my own decision as DM. I've continually found myself asking, do I want to keep putting in the time and effort here? . . . when I'm unsure that enough of you guys want to be here, or are getting enough out of it, to justify its existence. I often wonder, should I try and save this energy on something else? A writing project or something. I of course like you people and I love D&D and Eberron and so this game, in theory, achieves a few of those goals.

One thing I need you to disregard in all of this discussion: time conflicts. It goes without saying that we all have busy moments and schedule issues from time to time, and that's totally normal. So I'm strictly talking about the status quo here.

If I configured the poll right, you can only see the voting results after you've made your choice. Please don't just leave it; choose something. Though obviously I encourage you all to help me talk this out. 

Totally aside: I'll be out of town this week from Wednesday afternoon through Sunday, and will be able to check in but probably not move things forward very much (if that is indeed what people want).

[Brian]

Interesting poll results. Based on his post, it's pretty obvious Jeff's wondering if all the work he puts into DE is actually worth it--not just for us, but for himself. Other than myself, I don't know how each of us voted. I take three of us are looking for more consistent gameplay from our group. Two are good with varied levels of gameplay. One showed what I took as indifference to the game--no desire to quit but also no desire to be more invested.

It's that third one I can't quite wrap my head around. DE is supposed to be fun, but it takes effort to get to that fun. Roleplaying, combat, no small sense of adventure. We all know this. If one of us has a "Meh, I got nothing better to do" approach, how much fun are you having? And from a more selfish point-of-view, how much fun are you stripping from the game for the rest of us?

Jeff put up this poll for a reason. Not just to vote, but to start a dialogue about the game and its future. This thread obviously isn't meant to confront or critique but to talk. You're my friends. I want everyone to have fun playing. If anyone isn't, I have to ask: why are you still here, and is there anything we can do as a group to make it more fun?

Hopefully we'll hear what others have to say.

[Ken]

I'm on the same page as Brian. I thoroughly enjoy coming here, so much so that I usually put a good deal of thought into what Belarin says and how he engages with his comrades. Based on posts over the past few months (longer, really), not everyone is enjoying the game. I've seen multiple posts that are little more than "______ agrees" or even a little passive-aggressive, like "______ walks into a corner, since no one cares what he thinks." So I'll simply echo Brian's two questions. Thanks.

[Dave W.]

I'll be selfish and say I look forward to DE all the time.

There are times when you guys get ahead of me or I fall behind. There are times when I miss jumping into a conversation that, if we were F2F, I would have jumped in on. That's just the medium. It's not perfect but I still enjoy all these characters, not to mention jeff's deviousness...

I get a lot out of DE that I don't get elsewhere. About 2/3rds of my F2F (webcam-to-webcam?) group are not comfortable with PC having emotions... they're supposed to be game statistics. I was literally scolded one night with "I guess you have to do the role-playing thing and not the smart thing!" I am fond of these guys but it's not DE.

But, yes, echoing Brian and Ken, everyone should be doing this to have fun.

[Darren]

I have nothing to add to this conversation. I've been here for 15 years. (Over 15 years?) I wouldn't be here if I didn't enjoy it. Some days are harder than others to post. Some days I'm more inspired than others. Some days y'all get 12 steps ahead of me. And that's just fine.

[Joe]

I love playing this game or I, too, would not have spent close to every day for the past 10 plus years coming here. Some people seem to have all hours of the day to post and I often have to spend more time catching up than actually posting. That's fine. I certainly don't berate people for their exuberance. I also will not apologize for working 10 hour days, which I am 100% certain I don't have to do with Jeff. The work he puts in is EXTRAORDINARY. I appreciate it as I am sure everyone who plays this game appreciates it. The time and effort to make a game worthwhile for everyone, as well as himself, shows. I always give my best effort, even when it isn't good enough for others.

My only concern is the number of times I have to explain my own personal actions and behaviors, how often I have to assure people that I still enjoy this game. I promise you, when the day comes I stop enjoying this game, I will say so quickly, and without Streko's prevarication. If I have a problem with anyone here, I will bring it to their attention via personal message, NOT for the rest of the group to see and question. There are absolutely days I come home and I want nothing to do with this game or with my family or with anything...I'd prefer to curl up in bed, close my door and pretend human beings don't exist. I get over it fairly quickly (because I realize it's about me...not about anyone else). What I dislike is a questioning of my motives or desires, an inference that I don't give a shit about this game or the people who play it. I have to remind myself that THAT is not about me, but about them and what they are possibly dealing with that day. Still, after ten years or more, it can hurt. Why? Because I DO care. I care enough to visit this place every single day (that I am actually around my home computer). Some days there is nothing to post and, per previous comments, I will STILL attempt to post something so that everyone knows the character is alive and accounted for.

Jeff, I truly believe you KNOW how much this game means to those of us who play it. Josh, Marcy, Paul, Ed, and others no longer with us by choice had other priorities and left the game. I don't imagine that any of us here will stick around if we are unhappy or miserable, or have conflicting priorities. I am, without question, the LEAST D&D literate person here and, sometimes, I even get distracted by life to completely forget the last thing I posted. I can only apologize and promise to do better. It doesn't mean I love this place, or the people, any less, nor does it mean I have any less respect for the work and creativity that goes into this than anyone else.

I absolutely love Dark Echelon, what it was and where it is now. I see everyone doing their best to make the game fun, not just for themselves, but for the rest of us. As Jeff said, sometimes, life happens and that is not what this poll is about. I suspect Jeff just wants to know if continuing DE is worth it to him...and the rest of us as well. I have said this to him often enough to become a refrain...for me it is. You are all another family. I look forward to being here and interacting with you. I look forward to Streko's rants about something and how wonderfully nuanced every character has become. I am fond of each and every one of you. Some days, not as fond as others, but never without a deep respect for what you do in life and the time you give here. I think it is extremely important for those of us who might be unhappy to express that to Jeff, so that he can make plans. If it is Jeff who's unhappy, perhaps it is time to close up shop. Jeff, you MUST do what is important to YOU and what makes YOU happy. I can't imagine anyone involved with Dark Echelon being anything other than 100% supportive of whatever choice you make. Having said that, I love what we're doing and want to see this through to the end. Don't be 4400. Don't be Dark Matter. Be Star Trek (but not Enterprise).

In any case, Jeff will always have my greatest respect for his creativity and his detailed work on DE. Simply put, my friend, you are amazing. Everyone here is. Hell, Brian, how many novels have you published since we've been playing? Just, wow!! All of us here are so creative and it is a joy to play with all of you. As with my vote in this poll, I respect everyone and the choices they make here and in life and I don't expect anyone to feel obligated simply because they feel they must remain. I support everyone here, knowing and trusting that, if they don't WANT to be here or they can't be here, they will let Jeff know. And Jeff, if you want or need to put an end date on DE, I will respect that choice as well. I'll, personally, be deeply saddened and feel a profound loss in my life. That's what DE means to me...and that's what all of you mean to me. If that changes, I'll let you know (in many fewer words).

[Dave B.]

It seems that, unanimously, we are all having fun. I certainly am. I can only apologize for my limited time, but I do try to catch up when I fall behind. Sometimes, not very successfully.

I think the big question, and Joe did touch on it. Is Jeff still enyoing himself? Being a DM can be frustrating, if you're not absolutely sure your players are having a good time. I can empathize with that, since I run two separate campaigns, with two separate groups through zoom almost every week. It can be very daunting.

I certainly want to continue, but, ultimately it is Jeff's decision how we move forward.

[Jeff]

It's actually been 14 years now, Darren.

Anyway, I hardly know where to begin. I'm glad of all your honesty, but I would ask you to look deeper.

I myself can't choose a poll option because it's very much geared toward player participation. But here's what I don't want: I don't want to proceed just as we are. The DE status quo we've fallen in is one I can't do, anymore, and it's been very frustrating for a long time; participation and even interest seems to come and go. It's not consistent. I get it that there are schedule conflicts; again, that's not the issue. I can't emphasize that enough. And I can even understand the limitations that some people can only check in once per day. Very often, that once-per-day is still so very threadbare, and it puzzles me how that can be any fun. Letting other players make decisions and just generally carry the story forward. But if it is fun for anyone to post two lines of text per day in a game that's very obviously not a video game with multiple choice dialogue trees, know at least that it's not fun for me at the other end of things. 

I know this isn't tabletop, and if it was it would solve a lot of time issues. But even in tabletop play, I'm the kind of DM who is going to keep poking at and trying to engage the quiet player who never wants to make any decisions. If it's shyness, I try to pull them out of it. If there's just so introverted that they aren't comfortable interacting with the story, then mine isn't the right game for them. If they're power gamers who just want to get to the next faster-paced battles or dungeon crawling, or just want to level up, then again, mine isn't the right game for them. And I try to root that out early. Here, well, this is too many years to not try to solve the problem.

Joe, I get what you're saying and I appreciate your kind words, but you've got to understand: I didn't start this game just for social interaction and hanging out with you guys and oh yeah, we just happen to be playing D&D. Rather: I started the game for D&D and it's a boon that it's with you guys. I know we've changed D&D editions (because we did start during 3.5E!), but it's also been 5th Edition now for years. You don't have to be a rules master to look over character sheets that have all the information you need, plus the full rules are available for free online, AND I always answer game mechanics questions when they come up. We're kind of way past the point where you don't need to be familiar with the game we are playing.

I'm not going to tell you how to play Streko; but I do want Streko to own being an 11th-level cleric, so I'd really like it if he remembers when he's asked Olladra for a spiritual weapon to help battle his enemies, and don't forget he can at least ask for divine intervention. Shorak isn't just walking stumbling into rogue mastery, Belarin isn't just handed otherworldly powers by napping, and Melethos has had to strongarm himself and make sacrifices to earn some of his new abilities. You guys aren't just 1st-level PCs starting out.

Dave, yes, DMing can be frustrating, I know all that. I just want some cohesion to the participation in this game. Catching up when falling behind, like it's a regular thing . . . that feels like a chore to me. I've got a hypersensitive radar to this game being treated like it's a nuisance to anyone, even if only a little.

The way I've handled it in recent times is that I try to put in the same amount of effort into a given PC based on that PC's own level of engagement in what's going on. A one- or two-lined post that looks like an obligatory effort means probably nothing interesting is going to happen with that PC outside of battle. But even this feels artificial and meta. It's not what I want.

Anyway, just some of my stream-of-conscious counter thoughts for now.

No, wait, metaphor time. This far into the game, I don't want anyone here who's just along for the ride, allowing other passengers to worry about steering and gas. The adventuring party isn't a tour bus with just one or two people sharing the driving responsibilities and everyone else waiting in the back to just react (or not) to stuff that goes by. Rather, I'd like you to all be driving vehicles of your own (some with cars, or trucks, or motorcycles, maybe) on the same road by choice. Each person needs to put in their own gas and steer. The road forks and splits and goes through mud, and passes through blasting zones and falling rock zones, and it's up to you guys to decide to stay together through the challenges. Or not.

[Brian]

I purposefully held off responding to Jeff's post because often I'm quick (perhaps too quick) to jump in with my opinions. I really wanted to hear from Joe and Dave B. Not because I think you're derelict in duty or some such nonsense; you guys are putting in what time you can to the game and no one is here to judge that. But this discussion seems to be about an alignment of goals with regards to the game, and can we all come together with a common goal, so everyone enjoys the game with equal satisfaction. So I waited, and I waited, and all I heard were crickets.


Jeff puts more effort into DE--mental, emotional, and time-wise--than any of us combined. He flat out stated he cannot continue with the current status quo. I'm sure that wasn't easy for him; he doesn't strike me as a conflict for the sake of conflict person. The situation appears to have come to a head. If we can't hash out this issue, why the hell would we even proceed?

Soon we'll part ways with the Dragonfly and proceed on land. We'll be traveling through the jungles of Xen'drik, a place unknown to every party member but one--Shorak. To use Jeff's metaphor, Melethos intends to hand the driving duties to Shorak because the changeling is the best qualified person to gets us safely to the next stage of the quest. Here's my concern: I'm not particularly worried about Dave's once-a-day posting. We all have time constraints and want to respect those. It's the sparseness of the post; one or two sentences, mostly passive. No real decisions made to carry the party forward, no contingency plans written that gives the rest of the party some leeway to proceed until the next time Dave can post.

If we get to that point and nothing has changed, the game will cease to be fun for me and I will quit.

I'd really like to have a discussion about aligned goals. DE can be immensely entertaining and satisfyingly for me. I'd love to continue. But to throw in support with Jeff, I won't unless we can agree on some changes.

[Ken]

Thanks, Jeff and Brian. I admit I was disappointed to see that some of the original responses to the thread were, essentially, "Everything is fine, I like it here, let's keep going." But everything isn't fine. Our DM isn't enjoying himself, and that's our fault as players. If a lot of the day-to-day decision making seems to be in the hands of Kal, Melethos, and Belarin, it's because a) Adamant is humble and also serves an essential role as our moral compass, and b) Shorak and Streko have ceded any responsibility to the other characters. They seem quite content to let the ship float downriver (both in the game and metaphorically). Streko's Heroes Feast was such a highlight for us and our PCs because, well, actions like that from Streko almost never happen. And I expected Shorak to be standing alongside Brack for a good chunk of this voyage, discussing maps and trading advice on the path ahead. This campaign is supposed to be more than waiting for the next fight.

Things need to change, guys.

[Jeff]

The only thing that I want to add right here is that I never want anyone to think that this game should be about my fun alone. Longstanding DMs know well that they're usually having the most fun when they see everyone at the table (or virtual table) having fun all together. That's the highlight of almost any campaign. It's just like how I get grumpy when I see, in online discussions, people refer to any given game as "the DM's." It's never just his or hers. The story can't happen without the DM running it, but the game itself can't happen without the players. Which is why I always define RPGs as collective storytelling. There are so many twists and turns we've made in this game alone that I didn't see coming, based on decisions you guys made. I have loose plans and plenty of ideas depending on different paths ahead, and only some of those come about because of the choices made. Someday maybe I can share some of them with you once they're firmly in the rear-view mirror.

Agreed: the Heroes' Feast thing was just well timed for morale, for mechanics, and I'd love to see more stuff like that.

[Dave B.]

Here's the thing. I understand what Brian and Ken are saying. I can only apologize. When I write those short posts, it is only because nothing is coming to my mind to write. As for Shorak spending time with Brack during the voyage, this isn't anywhere near his original home. Not to mention, he was in his early teens when he was orphaned and had to find his way to Stormreach, where he was more in his element the jungles he left behind. Yes, he can be very helpful as a scout on land, but his seafaring skills are quite limited. His first experience on a ship was the Merrow Down. He is in the unknown as much as any other character. The area is similar to his home, but he has no direct knowledge of it. Especially, from the vantage of the river. Another thing is that I am not a writer. I have trouble putting my thoughts on 'paper' so to speak. It can take me a day or two to come up with what I want Shorak to do or respond to in certain situations. So, rather than leaving everyone hanging and falling behind even more I keep it short. Obviously, this is not always the case. Sometimes I do surprise myself and get more out of my slow brain. That being said, if my slowness and what seems to some, an indifference is taking the fun out of the game, then just tell me and if you want me to leave the game I will. I don't wish to be the cause of ruining your fun.

[Dave B.]

Oh, one more thing. Because, it really bothered me, Brian. I don't feel it is your place to tell me how I should run Shorak. I created him, you did not. I would appreciate it if you would keep your expectations of my character to yourself, please.

And Jeff, you shouldn't even allow a player to interfere with another player's characterization. Game mechanics? Rules? Sure.

[Brian]

I'm sorry, Dave. I must have misrepresented something. I had and have no intention of telling you how to run Shorak. That's your domain alone. All I said is what my intention for Melethos was vis a vis Shorak. Mel knows he's not equipped to deal with jungle travel. He knows Shorak is far more experienced. And he is willing to follow Shorak without question through that jungle. That was the extent of Melethos's intentions, not my expectations of you.

I went back and read my post again, upset with myself that I had inadvertently said something so crass as to give you that impression. But I can't see where I told you how to run your character. Honestly, I thought Ken was a bit more direct on how he thought Shorak should have been handling the voyage, but you don't make mention of that.

Regardless, if I every come across as telling you--or any of you--how to play your characters, please feel free to render a right and proper smack down.

[Jeff]

Mar 30, 2021 20:54:24 GMT -4 Dave B. said:

That being said, if my slowness and what seems to some, an indifference is taking the fun out of the game, then just tell me and if you want me to leave the game I will. I don't wish to be the cause of ruining your fun.

I have no interest in doing that, or kicking someone out of the game. What I would love is for you, especially in the coming weeks when the in-game geography shifts and Shorak's skills are in greater demand, step up and put more into your nightly posts. I've long since asked you whether you would like me to privately provide you with information so that Shorak can relay it in his own way, or whether you would prefer I simply put said information in the main posts. You said you didn't care either way. I'm asking you to care a bit more, so that the next phase of the campaign can really move.

If all that sounds like drudgery to you, and you would rather just be a passive passenger on the whole, then, only then, would I ask you to reconsider whether you want to be playing this story- and writing-heavy game. But I like you, Dave, and I want you to be here. I have no doubt that tabletop play would go smoothly with us. But this is the medium we have, and it has its own level of engagement.

Mar 31, 2021 1:34:55 GMT -4 Dave B. said:

And Jeff, you shouldn't even allow a player to interfere with another player's characterization. Game mechanics? Rules? Sure.

Seriously, please elaborate on this. I truly have no idea what you're referring to here. When did I "allow" a player (not even a character) to "interfere" with another player?

[Dave B.]

Mar 31, 2021 5:23:01 GMT -4 Brian said:

I'm sorry, Dave. I must have misrepresented something. I had and have no intention of telling you how to run Shorak. That's your domain alone. All I said is what my intention for Melethos was vis a vis Shorak. Mel knows he's not equipped to deal with jungle travel. He knows Shorak is far more experienced. And he is willing to follow Shorak without question through that jungle. That was the extent of Melethos's intentions, not my expectations of you.

I went back and read my post again, upset with myself that I had inadvertently said something so crass as to give you that impression. But I can't see where I told you how to run your character. Honestly, I thought Ken was a bit more direct on how he thought Shorak should have been handling the voyage, but you don't make mention of that.

Regardless, if I every come across as telling you--or any of you--how to play your characters, please feel free to render a right and proper smack down.

Nope, my apologies. I was half asleep whenI wrote that second post and I meant to direct it to Ken's post about his expectation of what Shorak should have been doing. Again, I am sorry.

[Dave B.]

Mar 31, 2021 8:36:49 GMT -4 Jeff said:

Mar 30, 2021 20:54:24 GMT -4 Dave B. said:

That being said, if my slowness and what seems to some, an indifference is taking the fun out of the game, then just tell me and if you want me to leave the game I will. I don't wish to be the cause of ruining your fun.

I have no interest in doing that, or kicking someone out of the game. What I would love is for you, especially in the coming weeks when the in-game geography shifts and Shorak's skills are in greater demand, step up and put more into your nightly posts. I've long since asked you whether you would like me to privately provide you with information so that Shorak can relay it in his own way, or whether you would prefer I simply put said information in the main posts. You said you didn't care either way. I'm asking you to care a bit more, so that the next phase of the campaign can really move.

If all that sounds like drudgery to you, and you would rather just be a passive passenger on the whole, then, only then, would I ask you to reconsider whether you want to be playing this story- and writing-heavy game. But I like you, Dave, and I want you to be here. I have no doubt that tabletop play would go smoothly with us. But this is the medium we have, and it has its own level of engagement.

Mar 31, 2021 1:34:55 GMT -4 Dave B. said:

And Jeff, you shouldn't even allow a player to interfere with another player's characterization. Game mechanics? Rules? Sure.

Seriously, please elaborate on this. I truly have no idea what you're referring to here. When did I "allow" a player (not even a character) to "interfere" with another player?

Again, I have to apologize to you as well, Jeff. My comment was that Ken stated he had expectations of what Shorak should have been doing on the ship, not Brian, and I took some umbrage from that comment. I guess because you didn't say anything about it in your following post, in my half-awake muddled thoughts I wrote that. I just felt that maybe you should have said something about Ken's comment, that's all.

As for providing information for Shorak privately, if you feel it's not going to add a lot more work for you, we can try it and see how it goes. If none of you see any improvement, just let me know. Just give me a little time to get my bearings, please. To be honest, I've felt a little lost creatively for a good part of this voyage. Also, there were the stretches of periods where I was dealing with personal stuff that started back in Jan., 2018. Yeah, like Shorak, I'm not totally comfortable with sharing much of it.

[Dave B.]

I do want to add that I am not the one who voted "Sure, why not?" Also, I'm not so sure that poll answer was necessarily Meh. Couldn't it also mean, "Hey, why wouldn't we want to continue?"

[Jeff]

Mar 31, 2021 22:16:28 GMT -4 Dave B. said:

My comment was that Ken stated he had expectations of what Shorak should have been doing on the ship, not Brian, and I took some umbrage from that comment. I guess because you didn't say anything about it in your following post, in my half-awake muddled thoughts I wrote that. I just felt that maybe you should have said something about Ken's comment, that's all.

Ahh. Since this isn't some group on Facebook, I don't regard myself as a moderator who needs to worry about censoring anyone. We're all friends here. I want to go on assuming we're all going to be adults here.

[Ken]

Dave, it certainly wasn't my intention to tell you how to play Shorak. My belief is that, as Shorak is someone who has sold his abilities as a scout, I expected him to be more involved in the exploration part of the campaign. That's all. I apologize if I overstepped.

[Dave B.]

Apr 1, 2021 9:33:30 GMT -4 Ken said:

Dave, it certainly wasn't my intention to tell you how to play Shorak. My belief is that, as Shorak is someone who has sold his abilities as a scout, I expected him to be more involved in the exploration part of the campaign. That's all. I apologize if I overstepped.

No worries. It jsut stung a little bit. I never thought Shorak was going to be involved in the river travel as a scout. Only when the party started their trek on land, did I envision Shorak calling on his scouting skills. Since the Merrow Down, Shorak has mentioned a few times how little he is experienced wtih water travel. Also, I'm pretty sure that the deal he made with Larest was for land/jungle scouting only. I'd have to go back a ways to try to find it, though. At least, that is what Shorak would have agreed to, anyway.

[Jeff]

Guys, I've recently spent some more money to acquire new map images and graphics and tokens and stuff (often drawing from marketplace.roll20.net, and just Photoshopping the rest), and spent quite a few scattered hours prepping some future environments so that I don't need to scramble so much when we get there. But lately, I'm not feeling like the this group is very much into this game (on the whole; I know I am not speaking for everyone). So I'm finding myself really at a mental and circumstantial crossroads again, wondering if I should be using this same energy in a different game or simply in my own writing (certainly a deeper concentration is needed for that than for running any RPG).

Previously, I've tried to gauge your willingness to participate, and on what levels, and to see what everyone thinks of that. But at this point, I'm now asking what you would like from me to make this worth your time here. If we continue, putting in less time and energy into it isn't really an option for me. That will defeat the purpose, because it's wasting everyone's time if I am the one ever phoning it in.

We can just fade to black and leave it as is, where the future of this party of adventurers remains untold (but hey, it's not a TPK either).

[Darren]

I can't speak for everyone, but I would be sad to see the game end. I know sometimes my participation wanes, but that's usually either due to some heavy workload or relapses of depression. I'm always reading (I generally check the site several times a day) but don't always have the time or energy to post (especially from my phone). But I, for one (welcome our ant overlords....no, dammit, Darren, this isn't the time!) would like to see the game continue.

[Ken]

I'll be honest and admit that, yes, my enthusiasm has waned over the past month, and I'm not sure why. Is it the length of the quest, knowing that - in real life - we might be another 24 months from getting to the Eye which we've been pursuing for years? Maybe. On another level, I recently felt I can't pursue Belarin's personal quests without turning Belarin into either a disruptive force on the quest or a diva, neither of which is appealing. I'm open to suggestions!

[Joe]

Jeff, I see the work you put into this and marvel at your creativity on a daily basis. As a novelist, you can easily see the big picture, as well as the need for the intimate details that create the perfect scene. Like Darren, I have bouts of depression now and then, often overcompensating by taking on too much in my work life. The past year has sucked whatever creative energies I had stored up, to the point that I no longer feel interested in writing, let alone creating a new world to explore and story to tell. Not to be hyperbolic, but DE has been a saving grace. Even at my lowest ebbs, I knew I could log in and fall into the story we are telling. Seriously, I can never thank you enough for that.

What can YOU do for the game? Continue being God. Give your best, when you can. Contact those within the group individually if you see something out of our baseline behavior (it might just be an odd, one-time thing that occurs). Allow us to fuel your creative energies as well. As I have mentioned before, I log in at least one a day (usually in the evenings when I get home from the office). More often than not, I check in multiple times per day, to see where we are at and such.

I am still considering an appropriate response to Streko's private message board request and such consideration is helping to push me back into what I hope will be a more fertile, creative mindset. I think that when you do include us in the story-telling process, whether it be subtly or directly, it helps all of us. Like acting, we can play off each other. As writers, it fuels our own storytelling machines. As friends, it continues to build the bonds within our community. Again, how could I ever possibly thank you enough for this gift you have provided?

Dark Echelon is almost its own persona now. So much has happened to our characters. Some of us have had amazing arcs. Some of us still have much to learn (I'm looking at you, Streko). However, what you, Jeff, have done is open up the possibilities for any arcs we might embark on. More leadership for Olladra's favorite halfling. Belarin dealing with issues some might call "schizophrenia" in a non-magical world. Melethos having deep identity issues and issues of guilt to wade through. Kal, our happy-go-luck narcissist with a heart of gold (and a wand of lightning). Adamant, Dark Echelon's own Data. Shorak, the mysterious stranger. If you look at all of these characters and look back on who they were FOURTEEN YEARS AGO (in some cases)...my God, Jeff, you helped create this and the incredible imaginations of my fellow Echeloners (ites?) have spun their mystical threads into a fabric that is stunningly beautiful.

What can you do? What you have been doing, my friend. We can't ask for more, and certainly wouldn't ask for less. The question is, I believe, how can we assist each other, as storytellers, to make this world a place worth fighting for every day? Some days we all lack the strength, enthusiasm, or time to post thoughtful threads. Some days we are so distracted by life as to not be present. However, we ARE a community. I am so very excited for a possible zoom call. I wouldn't mind getting together to play a MMORPG and create a little guild or whatever to play. (I get a couple hours each night before I crash to have Joe time, otherwise it is work and home responsibilities.)

We are a team, all of us. Friends and family. Streko thinks as much of the group. As do I. So, Jeff, you have the responsibility to set the table. It is our responsibilities to sit at it and consume the morsels you provide.

[Brian]

From what I can see, what we need to address is not the game per se but motivation to play the game. We all enjoy the game itself. Like Joe said, at its longest, some of us have been playing for fourteen years. Holy cow! Who'd stay that long if they didn't like the game?

What I'm seeing is a personal motivation question. True, Jeff provides the basic framework of the game, but DE is interactive. I really don't like using the "story" metaphor, but I'm going to use it anyway. We're basically in a shared-world novel. By agreeing to participate, we're expected to provide input to drive the story. To do that, you have to be immersed in the story. (Note, I'm not talking about game mechanics.) If you're not engaged, if you're not in your character's head and thinking like him, you're in essence "dialing it in." That can take away from the enjoyment of others, not the least of whom, Jeff. Instead of us providing the hooks he needs for character arcs, he has to come up with them.

Maybe this is what Jeff is looking for?

To be sure, no one is expected to put sophisticated writing into each post. It's the emotion coming through that makes a difference. Take Adamant as an example: Dave W. does a masterful job with him. Is the writing technically sophisticated. No, not really. (Please, Dave. That's not meant to be an insult.) But damn is Adamant compelling. Dave created--on his own volition--a love story between a warforged and a dryad. Jeff took that hook and ran with it. I love it!

And that's all it took--a player-initiated love story.

Take Belarin and Melethos. Belarin's confrontation with Melethos threw me; I didn't expect it. But it was wonderful. It created tension, and a hook Jeff can use later in the adventure. Challenge Belarin and Melethos to resolve a question where they are on opposite sides. There's one less hook Jeff has to create.

And speaking of Belarin: Ken, if his side quest means that much, have him push. He'll get pushback from Mel (there's that tension again) but Mel considers Belarin his best friend and will eventually support him if he makes his case strongly enough. It's not diva, it's story.

I guess what I'm asking here is not if anyone enjoys the game (we all do) but what would help each person's motivation to play the game? It doesn't have to be pedal-to-the-metal all the time--we all have our personal slow points--but is there something each person is looking for to push that motivation up in general?

And speaking of low points, it might help if you put in the Schedule and Conflicts section that a little down time would be helpful. I'm sure everyone would be supportive, and we wouldn't be left guessing.

[Dave W.]

May 28, 2021 12:54:30 GMT -4 Brian said:

Dave W. does a masterful job with him. Is the writing technically sophisticated. No, not really. (Please, Dave. That's not meant to be an insult.)

Absolutely no insult felt! But I’m glad you like Addy. I’m fond of him too.

I still enjoy the game. But I don’t want it to feel like work for anyone.

[Brian]

Like Addy? Are you kidding? He's awesome.

Joe nailed it when he said Adamant is our Data. I couldn't think of a better comparison.

[Jeff]

I appreciate those of you here who have given this a real response, especially those putting in some effort.

May 28, 2021 11:22:04 GMT -4 Ken said:

Is it the length of the quest, knowing that - in real life - we might be another 24 months from getting to the Eye which we've been pursuing for years? Maybe.

What sucks about hearing this is . . . it's all cyclic. I do try hard to pick up the pace and move things along but flagging participation (and quite honestly, interest) from some players only serves to stretch out the journey. Which, in turn, clearly creates renews the fatigue and makes everything take longer. And this likewise impacts this: 

May 28, 2021 11:22:04 GMT -4 Ken said:

I recently felt I can't pursue Belarin's personal quests without turning Belarin into either a disruptive force on the quest or a diva, neither of which is appealing.

I'm very aware of these personal quests, and while I know when new opportunities are coming up, you guys don't. But with gameplay becoming so spaced out by all the above issues, it can seem like it's forever. 

Regarding Belarin's own thing in particular: long ago it was established that his pact dagger took his mind to a special place whenever he was forced into unconsciousness (as opposed to when merely sleeping). After this seldom happened at Belarin's own choosing, eventually I renewed the effort on my end, and that's why Histra suggested forcing his episodes to occur to explore it. He's done that only once. I can only push so much. Then the Cave provided some new elements to each person's story and given me some new approaches.

Obviously, personal quests and goals are only for some characters. I've dropped hooks for everyone over the course of the campaign but some players clearly have no interest in such things so I drop them.

May 28, 2021 11:48:45 GMT -4 Joe said:

Jeff, I see the work you put into this and marvel at your creativity on a daily basis. As a novelist, you can easily see the big picture, as well as the need for the intimate details that create the perfect scene. 

Joe, I know you mean well, but please, I'm not looking for praise or flattery. After a while, it's mostly doing the opposite of what you're going for. I don't want praise, I want engagement, attention. I want to stop having to remind so often and do character rolls so much. 

May 28, 2021 11:48:45 GMT -4 Joe said:

 What can YOU do for the game? Continue being God. Give your best, when you can. Contact those within the group individually if you see something out of our baseline behavior (it might just be an odd, one-time thing that occurs).

 
To me, this just means: Keep picking up the every-increasing slack. I really don't want the job of chasing down players who disappear. I know there's very little about our game that's like tabletop play, but if there was, this would be like having to get up and find players who've wandered away from the table. How long before I start asking: does that player want to be at the table in the first place?
Brian's got some points, and I certainly agree that player motivation really shouldn't be something I alone provide. It really feels that way a lot of the time. 

May 28, 2021 11:48:45 GMT -4 Joe said:

It is our responsibilities to sit at it and consume the morsels you provide.

This continues that stance that I'm just telling a story and having you all gather around to listen. That's not how this is supposed to go. This is a collective story. I keep saying that, and it's not getting through.

May 28, 2021 12:54:30 GMT -4 Brian said:

I guess what I'm asking here is not if anyone enjoys the game (we all do) but what would help each person's motivation to play the game? It doesn't have to be pedal-to-the-metal all the time--we all have our personal slow points--but is there something each person is looking for to push that motivation up in general?

This is very true. My D&D philosophy for any game, as a player or DM, is: "How can I make this game fun for myself and everyone else here? Can I make my character (or my NPCs) more fun for the other people in this game?" We've probably all seen those players who are in it only for their own fun alone.

I realize some of you are rolling your eyes at my occasional expressions of frustrations. It's less of a big deal to you, because you just have to show up, you don't have the run the thing. I'm facing a sunk cost dilemma.

[Brian]

Jeff put up a long, informative post. I don't have more to add that I didn't say the last time.

However, for me, the part that stood our most starkly was the last two lines. I hear frustration in those words. I wouldn't be surprised if eventually Jeff's enjoyment of the game no longer exceeds the cost sink of running it. And at that point, why would any rational person continue?