Darren
Kalarian d'Deneith (human)
Kalarian
Posts: 7,310
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Post by Darren on Jun 1, 2021 16:29:50 GMT -4
I wish I knew how to help with this. I know the amount of time it takes you to do all of this, and I definitely appreciate it, even if I don't always show it. I do try to engage as much as possible. Like I said, some days are harder than others, and I do try to let you all know when I'm going to disappear. I've appreciated all of the character hooks, and I try to play into them when practical, but sometimes I also am afraid of derailing the game for my own personal side quests. Kal's recent attempt at contacting the Keeper of Secrets was really just about Kal, and it did give us all some fun stuff to play with, but even if he had gotten some answers that would have taken us off of the main journey, I don't think anyone would have agreed to it (or, at least, as characters I think we would have all felt that keeping to our current course was important). I've sort of filed some of these things away as stuff I'd like to explore later (hell, a lot of it is back on a different continent....)
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Brian
Melethos (tiefling)
Melethos
Posts: 5,085
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Post by Brian on Jun 1, 2021 17:55:40 GMT -4
Maybe we all need to pay attention to, and be more responsive and receptive to, PCs personal quests. Because that's two now who have felt hesitant to follow that personal quest out of fear of taking over.
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Ken
Belarin Malizia
Belarin
Posts: 5,691
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Post by Ken on Jun 1, 2021 22:01:47 GMT -4
I've been happy to follow personal quests when, say, we were in Sharn. But it's different in our current situation. And sure, Belarin did try the "knock yourself out" option once, which resulted in Belarin nearly dying, Histra having to surrender part of her own blood to bring him back, and Kal asking Belarin not to do anything like that again while they're on the voyage.
I've considered having Belarin try again, because - well, when has Belarin placed a ton of value on promises? But if he pushes back on Kal and tries again, I worry about this becoming "The Belarin Show."
That said, I realize that I'm worrying about things that might not happen, and that's my bad. So I apologize, Jeff. I'll give it another shot when the situation presents itself.
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Jeff
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Post by Jeff on Jun 2, 2021 8:34:28 GMT -4
No, don't apologize, Ken.
And really, these personal character quest things are always just a matter of choice. Always optional. How you all react to one another's is your own choice to make, as long, of course, as it's made with the general view toward everyone's fun. The classic and problematic "It's what my character would do" attitude isn't really a big problem in anyone in this group, I think. But if this sort of thing is the reason (or a reason) for flagging interest, then yes, by all means let's iron it out. That said, none of them have a point of no return if you don't pursue them in a specific window of time. You'll have to take my word on that.
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Darren
Kalarian d'Deneith (human)
Kalarian
Posts: 7,310
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Post by Darren on Jun 2, 2021 12:05:25 GMT -4
I can't speak for everyone, but I would guess that a lot of the appearance of flagging interest has nothing to do with anything happening inside of this game. The world has been a total shitshow for a while now, and we've all got our own personal stuff going on, and it gets hard to make enough time for everything. I think, for my own part, I try to let you guys know when I'm just not where I need to be with posting, and maybe we should all do that when things are getting tough in own lives? Would that help you, Jeff, to at least know that?
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Jeff
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Post by Jeff on Jun 2, 2021 12:14:21 GMT -4
Spreading the game thinner doesn't help with that, Darren. To me, that means even having to come check in and participate is a chore, not something fun to do for any kind of escapism. It's certainly an argument for bringing this to a close, to "free" everyone.
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Darren
Kalarian d'Deneith (human)
Kalarian
Posts: 7,310
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Post by Darren on Jun 2, 2021 16:20:16 GMT -4
Spreading the game thinner doesn't help with that, Darren. To me, that means even having to come check in and participate is a chore, not something fun to do for any kind of escapism. It's certainly an argument for bringing this to a close, to "free" everyone. No, I don't think that's true. I think that the ability to be creative sometimes gets squashed by the realities of daily life. There are times when I sit down in front of the computer and just can't come up with anything. It doesn't mean I don't want to, it just means it's not in me at that moment. I don't want to hold up the game, so sometimes I'll post even though I can't really say what I want to say. And sometimes, yes, I just don't post because I can't come up with anything. But your argument is the same one that is often presented to me as a depressed person....I am so often told by people, "I'll just leave you alone, then." That's not the answer. I don't want to be left alone. I want to know that that person is there and hopefully when I come out of it, they'll still be there. The knowledge that they're there is what gets me through it. Likewise with DE, the knowledge that when the creativity hits, I can let it loose, is what keeps me going. I have no interest in seeing this game end, but I'm also not really clear on what it is you want from us. It's not enough to say, "More participation." What does that look like to you? Do you expect longer posts? More detail? Different strategy?
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Brian
Melethos (tiefling)
Melethos
Posts: 5,085
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Post by Brian on Jun 2, 2021 17:16:52 GMT -4
Here's my two cents on what engagement looks like.
Longer posts? Not really. Maybe not one or two sentences, but certainly not paragraphs of exposition.
I'll go back to my Adamant example. Due to his job, Dave W. often doesn't have the time to craft extended posts. They are usually a few lines of dialogue or action. But what he does post is packed with story. I can tell how Addy feels when Dave writes, "Adamant hunches his shoulders, trying to make himself appear smaller." That's scads more than just description. He'll write three or four lines of dialogue with the dryad and it's full of story.
I'll go back to Belarin. As I said, Ken surprised me when he had Belarin confront Melethos about the chest. It wasn't a long post, but it was direct and emotional. I'll confess something: when I first read the post, I forgot to make the distinction between character and player, and for a few moments, I honestly thought I'd pissed off Ken. The writing was that beautiful. Short, sweet, to the point, and BAM, you have involvement.
I'll even give you a third example. When Melethos literally fell on his sword to rid himself of the ghost Rath, Dave B had Shorak wipe the blood off the braid of hair Big Red carries with him. Dave's post wasn't long and drawn out, but I'll never forget it. To this day, I think of that scene. That's impactful.
Darren, I hear you. Depression sucks, majorly. I've fought it all my life, and when my oldest daughter died back in 1996, it came damn close to winning. So, yes, I get it. But when you are engaged, your posts are phenomenal. I've mentioned this to Jeff, but I truly think you could write some fine short stories, ones I'd certainly like to read. My only advice, as someone who's been in your shoes, is a line from a movie: Never give up, never surrender. Nerd words to the Nth degree, sure. But it's gotten me through tough times.
Jeff probably has more to say, but for me, those few lines that show you're thought about your character and how that character interacts with other PCs makes the game far more enjoyable.
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Post by Dave B. on Jun 2, 2021 20:51:19 GMT -4
I pretty much agree with just about everything everyone is saying. I actually thought that things were progressing in a positive way since we began this discussion over a month ago, albeit slowly. Maybe, I'm just not picking up on what Jeff is seeing presently. But, I get what Brian is saying. It's not about the length of the post. I'm certainly going to try to take to heart those comments and work hard at adding to the 'story' rather than just riding the waves of everyone else's post. I know I've done that way too many times in the past. I do think I get trapped in thinking way too much about game mechanics, since I have to do that all the time with the several campaigns I'm running, myself. I occasssionally have to remind myself to look at this campaign through the eyes of a player, not a DM. I, for one, have gotten some of my creative groove returning and would hate to see this end. I feel we need to figure out what it is we need to do as players to make sure Jeff is having as much fun as we are.
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Dave W.
Adamant (Warforged)
Adamant
Posts: 4,643
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Post by Dave W. on Jun 3, 2021 10:31:38 GMT -4
It's been a long time since I GM'ed a campaign but I do sympathize with it being a lot of work. And it can seem like the players are just showing up and putting nothing in on their side. Aside: In the middle of a game a player once asked why everyone else was hitting and he kept missing. Turns out everyone else leveled up when told to (at the time 4th level) but his PC was still 1st level. Why? "I've been busy." Second Aside: one of the advantages of being old is that you have a lot of stories to tell. One of the disadvantages of knowing old people is that they have a lot of stories to tell... As I've said I still am invested. But I think it needs to be fun for everyone, including Jeff.
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Jeff
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Post by Jeff on Jun 3, 2021 13:05:16 GMT -4
I am encouraged by some of what I'm hearing. But these are some important points to me: And sometimes, yes, I just don't post because I can't come up with anything. My main response to that is: do you think it's okay if I am the same way? If I'm not "inspired" (not, not every post is equal), would you, as players, want me to just phone it in, or should I just not post and leave things hanging for a few days (which is sure to make you all even less interested)? Really think about that. But your argument is the same one that is often presented to me as a depressed person....I am so often told by people, "I'll just leave you alone, then." That's not the answer. I don't want to be left alone. I want to know that that person is there and hopefully when I come out of it, they'll still be there. The knowledge that they're there is what gets me through it. Likewise with DE, the knowledge that when the creativity hits, I can let it loose, is what keeps me going. I have no interest in seeing this game end, but I'm also not really clear on what it is you want from us. It's not enough to say, "More participation." What does that look like to you? Do you expect longer posts? More detail? Different strategy? I really dislike having to chase anyone down. I know we all get busy (and when we know it ahead of time, that's what the schedules/conflicts thread is for, which we've all used), but when I hear "I forgot" I also hear "I don't care." And then yeah, my fun is gone. I ask myself why I am doing this. I really don't want this game to be taken as some kind of therapy. It's not. If someone merely wants contact with friends, they can do that directly without going through a medium like a roleplaying game. Is such a game incidentally, also contact with friends? Yes, totally. I never liked gaming with strangers for any length of time. D&D has a way of turning strangers into friends, so in those cases where that didn't happen, those people drifted away. It's sort of the way of things with Elvis, for example. I interacted with him through this game way more than anywhere else in the last couple of years before his passing, but I had met him in real life once and corresponded with him plenty for years before that, ever since my Eberron novel days. Similar with Joe! Games and fantasy were one of the few areas where my interests and similarities overlapped with Elvis's. But I'm putting in a lot of effort into this game and sometimes, when posts sound repetitive or like players are just going through the motions, it feels like you guys feel you're somehow doing me a favor by checking in once a day. And that's all wrong. Sure, that's sometimes more about my perception, but there are reasons it feels that way. I can remember better times. I have no interest in seeing this game end, but I'm also not really clear on what it is you want from us. It's not enough to say, "More participation." What does that look like to you? Do you expect longer posts? More detail? Different strategy? My best answer is the flip it around and have you tell me what you want from me. Joe has said: keep doing what I'm already doing. But I say again: that means picking up the slack when others disengage. If I stripped out all detail and character interaction and just posted: "The NPCs say some things to you and the days pass and nothing happens," is that good enough for you? Would that be okay? How long could you tolerate being in a game like that? Or maybe another way to answer it is: if you suddenly the DM of this very game, is everything going just as you want it to?
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Darren
Kalarian d'Deneith (human)
Kalarian
Posts: 7,310
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Post by Darren on Jun 3, 2021 13:35:56 GMT -4
I don't really know what to say about any of this. I'm doing the best I can. If you don't want to do it anymore, then I guess we're done. I don't really want to fight about it anymore.
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Ken
Belarin Malizia
Belarin
Posts: 5,691
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Post by Ken on Jun 3, 2021 21:18:52 GMT -4
Darren, it's not that Jeff doesn't want to do it anymore. It's that he wants to know that the players are as invested as he would like to be. It's a fair request.
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Brian
Melethos (tiefling)
Melethos
Posts: 5,085
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Post by Brian on Jun 4, 2021 5:59:18 GMT -4
And I don't think we're fighting. I think the discussion has been healthy. Uncomfortable at times, perhaps, but definitely healthy.
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Jeff
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Post by Jeff on Jun 4, 2021 10:36:05 GMT -4
Appopros of nothing (as my old boss used to say), I found this rather helpful (though of course much of it applies only to face-to-face tabletop play): www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyOdjDaQE8M#10, Take Initiative, is huge to me. That big emphasis on "open world."
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Jeff
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Post by Jeff on Nov 8, 2021 7:57:42 GMT -4
Just to bring the discussion here to the proper thread. I wish I had a good solution for this, because I agree with Brian - it's frustrating at times. I know I'm slower to post on the weekends because I get wrapped up in family stuff and I'm away from the keyboard (and yes, I recognize the irony that it's easier for me to post when I "at work"). Maybe shorten the 24-hour timetable to, say, 18 hours? 12 hours would be too short. For me, it's a damned-if-you-do and damned-if-you-don't position. I could ask for more participation and checking in to keep things moving—which turns me into a jerk and tyrant DM. But statements like this also haunt me: I'll be honest and admit that, yes, my enthusiasm has waned over the past month, and I'm not sure why. Is it the length of the quest, knowing that - in real life - we might be another 24 months from getting to the Eye which we've been pursuing for years? Maybe. On another level, I recently felt I can't pursue Belarin's personal quests without turning Belarin into either a disruptive force on the quest or a diva, neither of which is appealing. I'm open to suggestions! As I watch nearly 24 hours pass between turns on a single round, meaning one battle is likely to go way beyond a week in real life. But as always, for me it's also a problem of morale. It feels like I'm asking for everyone to come play this game, but if they'd simply rather not bother about any of this—if it's a nuisance to "have to" come post—then I'd rather just end it. This is why it comes up from time to time. I'm sure it makes me sound like a broken record to you guys, but the problems persist. Jeff nailed it. If we’re talking about setting up guidelines for playing, then the motivation or inherent enjoyment has left the game. Other interests have taken hold. And that is okay. It happens. Life happens. I don’t want to continue if DE is an afterthought. Something you try and fit into a spare few minutes. It just isn’t fun for me playing that way. Perhaps the time has come to call it done? I hate to say it, but yeah, maybe. We've achieved a lot and lasted literally a DECADE longer than any other PBP campaign I've been in. Maybe it's time to work with Jeff on epilogues for each of our characters. This was the sort of thing I tried to feel out and head off, and avoid, before Chapter 21, but I’d still rather it be now than another six months, you know? I’m happy to read anything further from you guys but I don’t really have anything to offer on any epilogue front. The game is failing because general player interest has, and I’d rather fade out gracefully than put more energy into something that may not even be desired. I prefer a not too fast pace, only because I'm usually only able to check in once a day. But, this has been an even slower pace than that, so I don't know what the best solution is. Since it does seem that life is getting in the way of even the moderate pace, maybe it is time to find a stopping point. Posting out of turn can make things too chaotic, especially if your character's next turn is the following round. Not to sound defensive, but I do spend more than just a few minutes when I log on to post. I will often re-read previous posts, check on rules for specific situations, carefully examine the maps and character placements. Once I feel I have thoroughly assessed everything, then I compose my post, sometimes rewriting or even editing several times before I'm satisfied. This usually takes an hour. Depending on the situation and the length of said post, that can be a little less or more time. I know I've spent two+ hours on a single post in the past. I do find some time to pop in to read posts outside of the times I log on to post, but I can't pop in for a few minutes to post. I wouldn't be able to write anything in so short a time. Of course, that's just for combat. When we are in a more narrative place, I still need time to post, but I don't have to strategize as much. All that being said, it would be nice to finish this particular quest, but maybe that isn't an option for everyone and a cliffhanger sort of ending is called for. We can use our own imaginations to infer our own character's story or maybe some time down the road, when life allows, we can pick up the story again. I'm not sure what you mean by "this particular quest." I'd rather leave things to one's own interpretation and wonder, as the literal cliffhanger it is, than to create some kind of blasé wrap-up, you know? Nearly all my campaigns ended when life got too busy for the group, and I think I'd rather at least simulate that's what's happened here.
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Darren
Kalarian d'Deneith (human)
Kalarian
Posts: 7,310
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Post by Darren on Nov 8, 2021 9:16:24 GMT -4
This conversation makes me incredibly sad. I know I also sometimes slow things down because of life, but I love this game, I love these characters, and I will be very sad to see them die.
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Brian
Melethos (tiefling)
Melethos
Posts: 5,085
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Post by Brian on Nov 8, 2021 9:44:43 GMT -4
I'm a little sad, but I'm more proud and happy. I met all of you through DE and my life is much richer for it. Games come and go but friends stay for life.
I think we've been building up to the moment since Elvis died last year. I'm okay with the game ending. I spent nearly 20% of my life playing it. That's pretty darn wonderful.
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Ken
Belarin Malizia
Belarin
Posts: 5,691
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Post by Ken on Nov 8, 2021 11:54:29 GMT -4
What Brian said. This has been a wonderful experience that has lasted a STAGGERINGLY long time, and I'm full of gratitude to Jeff and all of you for making it possible.
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Dave W.
Adamant (Warforged)
Adamant
Posts: 4,643
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Post by Dave W. on Nov 8, 2021 13:17:32 GMT -4
Not sure what I can add. I still enjoy the game. It's my only real play-by-post experience and it's been a blast. Doing database support, I'm in the unfortunate circumstance that my life can get derailed unpredictably. (being a team lead in an organization that needs some work with leadership doesn't help either). So between only this as my play-by-post and work being what it is, I think maybe I'm less concerned about the slow pace. Maybe I don't know enough to know I should be frustrated... Anyway, assuming we wrap it here, you guys have been a gift to me. my deepest thanks!
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Joe
Streko Tavven (halfling)
Streko
Posts: 3,518
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Post by Joe on Nov 8, 2021 22:11:26 GMT -4
I agree with all of the above. Each of you has been here with me as I have dealt with the deaths of my parents new jobs, 1,000 mile relocation to a new state, the passing of two other dogs, and just so much of the everyday life events. Hard to believe it's been almost 15 years that we've been together. I am working a job I love, helping human beings that many actively dislike, distrust, and, often, hate, while working hours that make posting often impossible. I would give up neither the job nor Dark Echelon if given the choice. I also know I am one person among a family of men (and their supportive loved ones). I am honored to have been here for Seb's arrival into the world, to have met Brian and Sue for wine and a lovely chat, and I hope to get the opportunity to meet the rest of you, now that travel restrictions are easing. I love traveling to places I've never been and the lot of you mean the world to me. I hope each of you understands how important and dear I hold you in my life, despite not having met the majority of you in real life.
If DE stops here, I will be terribly sad. But, as they as say in Star Trek, All Good Things... Or is it What You Leave Behind that matters? Perhaps it's how you play the Endgame. Ah, but to look forward on this vast ocean of life and imagination, let's end the journey of Kal, Melethos, Belarin, Adamant, Shorak, Streko, and Company with a simple thought...These are the Voyages...
I will miss our daily interactions, guys, if this is it. I look forward to more play if it isn't.
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Post by Dave B. on Nov 9, 2021 1:11:17 GMT -4
Wow! How do I follow all that. I have to agree with everyone in there statements. It has been a great experience and Jeff should get some sort of award for creating such an amazing world for us, inviting us into helping to mold that world and also putting up with our little quirks and eccentricities.
So, what's next? Do we just stop here or do we continue on to a point that satisfies our fine DM? I ask this, because as players, I think we should do our best to make the end as painless as possible for Jeff and for all of us. I'm more concerned with Jeff, because I know from experience how it feels to have a campaign you are running end in a bad or sad way. It has happened to me way too many times as a DM.
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Jeff
Administrator
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Post by Jeff on Nov 9, 2021 12:23:33 GMT -4
I'll keep this short, because the more I think about this game, the work involved, and some of the major plot points (and NPC secrets and subplots) I was looking forward to evolving and eventually concluding, the more it stings. I don't want to dwell on it, so I'll walk away and leave some things to mystery. There is somethings about stating secrets that finally kills them, and drives the final nail in their coffins. I'd rather not.
That said, you're all more than welcome to say whatever you wish about your characters and what you imagined for them. I'd be happy to read them. But I'm not going to spend any more time on continuing a game that's not going anywhere, though. And I'm not sure, even if I did, that it would interest you all. Which is kind of why we're here. So whatever you say now, if you do, be sure it's for your own satisfaction, you know? Do it for you, not for me.
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