Chapter 16: Q&A / Discussion

[Brian]

For story purposes, Melethos will not resist Kal's telekinesis.

Joe, good luck on this last week. I remember well when we met last month how much you've disliked this class.

[Brian]

Aug 22, 2018 20:44:34 GMT -4 Elvis said:

Thanks Joe. I've commented to Jeff multiple times how much i am enjoying the dynamics of the characters.

Me - as a player - i love contrasts. The bolder the better. Thul is meant to be unlikable. I am glad it is coming across.

That being said, he is also part of a gaming group and contibutes to drivibg the plot forward. So, as assholish as he cones across, he is tethered to the principles of a cooperative game.

He is also designed to evolve - and hopefully cause others to evolve too.

Anyway. I am on here daily because it is definitely a highlight of my day.

The old woman is my fav npc so far. 😉

If I may make a comment, Elvis.

Most of us are storytellers. We understand how important conflict is to a story. And, really, that is what our characters are in: a story.

However, there must be a way to resolve the conflict, or the story stagnates. I'm digging Thul and how you play him. My only concern--and this may be overblown by me--is Thul being so intractable that dealing with him becomes impossible...or impossibly frustrating.

I think I get what Thul is trying to do--in his own fashion, he is pushing Streko to become the best fighter he can. That's good, in my opinion. And he can be unlikeable while doing it (his refusal to use anyone's name is a good example, it's subtle but very annoying). If comes across as nothing but a know-it-all bully, though, then I'm uncertain how it will play out.

Those are just my two cents worth. He's your character, to play any way you wish. I'm just giving a little consideration to the fun content, for everyone's sake.

[Darren]

What Brian is talking about is basically the improv concept of "Yes, and..." When doing improv, the idea is that no matter what anyone says, your response should basically always be, "Yes, and..." at which point you add your piece and the scene keeps going. As soon as you say no, the scene grinds to a halt.

[Elvis]

Im not clear on the issue here.

When has Thul ever said no?

[Brian]

I didn't mean intractable in terms of cooperation. Thul has never outright said no. I meant intractable in terms of personality.

[Darren]

Right. I don't mean literal no, but it's the idea of moving the story forward. Putting it back into improv terms....

If actor 1 walks into a scene and says, "Hello, I'm the doctor and I'm here to deliver your baby," then actor 2 has a few choices. One choice would be to say, "I'm not pregnant." This would leave actor 1 hanging with nothing to play off of. Instead, actor 2 needs to take the idea and run with it. "Oh, thank god you're here doctor! Being the first man to give birth has given me such pains!" Again, actor 1 now has to work with the fact that actor 2 just said he's a pregnant man. He can't say, "No, you're a woman," and invalidate the idea that actor 2 brought to the scene.

All of the actors (or in our case, players) have a responsibility to keep the scene moving forward, even if it's not going the way they had originally planned.

[Elvis]

What it sounds like to me is there is a need to build a hegemony.

Good example of this, Brian, is Thul's thing about names. For some reason everyone is fixated on this as Thul being rude. And the idea is that it needs to be fixed. Why is that?

There seems to be a conform or else vibe happening.

There won't be any trust given until Thul starts acting like the rest of us.

Hell... Melethos lied directly to Thul's face when picked him as his #2. Without batting a eye.

Belarin bragged openly to Thul that he is an exceptional liar.

Streko gets offended and his reaction is to teach Thul a lesson... Clearly using violence as a justifiable action. Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me... Has lost its relevance.

When weighed against the rudeness of not using a person's real name, these social norms listed above are far more indicative of pompous self righteousness than what Thul does.

Strongarm tactics to get a character to behave the way the party wants him to behave doesn't inspire fun roleplaying.

[Elvis]

Again... I'm not sure where Thul has said no. In improv terms.

[Brian]

Melethos lied...how? Thul's age and experience makes him the best second in command. If Mel had other motives, which I argue could ultimately compliment Thul's overall experience, is that a bad thing?

Personally, I've got used to the Redman thing. I actually see it as a "Thul thing" and not an insult. It is a character trait, and not a bad one.

Elvis, you speak about fun in roleplaying. I don't think anyone wants you not to have fun, and we're pretty cognizant that you get to run Thul as you wish. I guess my point would be the intentional belittling and demeaning of a character, such as Thul's outburst at Streko--when does that cross a line and make the game not fun for the other person? Can that line even be crossed, when we are speaking in-character?

[Dave W.]

Belarin and his old woman... might need to be a thing

[Ken]

My two cents regarding the "Redman" and other names: From Belarin's standpoint, he perceives it as a lack of respect for Melethos. "Deneith" and "Jorasco" -- that's fine. It's part of their House-given names, after all. Even "warlock" is fine; that's what Belarin is, and he knows it. He's made a pact with an unearthly entity. Yep, I'm a warlock.

But "Redman" hits a button for Belarin. He has a huge amount of respect for Melethos. Kal may be a spiritual "brother" to Belarin (they bicker like brothers), but Melethos is his rock. When Belarin is confused about what's right and wrong, he trusts Melethos' judgment more than anyone else's to set him straight.

So "Redman" is insulting to his ears. It's even a little racial to him, which sets him off even more. It'd be one thing if Thul called Melethos "tiefling," as Streko just did (and that's still not great). But in Belarin's eyes, "Redman" is a deliberate attempt to diminish Melethos. He's going to have a problem with that.

As for Belarin being an exceptional liar... hey, Thul DID ask for a list of specific skills and talents. That's a prime one for Belarin! And it's helped the party multiple times.

I'm enjoying Thul's attempt to get everyone on the same page, combat wise. The party needs it!

[Elvis]

I forgot to add my most favourite moment...

When Kal gave a human being to the sahuagin.

As for Melethos... (not that Thul will act in this, since he didn't actually hear it)... but when Melethos reassured Adamant that Thul will never actually lead. It was just a tactic to placate Thul.

I guess that is what I am trying to figure out. This whole crossing the line thing. When Thul does something you don't like, the response is always harsh... including being hit with a darkness spell at a moment where they could have been attacked. But when Thul speaks plainly to Streko, who he feels has more potential to contribute to the party, that is considered 'crossing the line'.

When has it become more palatable to lie, justify violence and threats when you are offended, and slave traffic? The idea that a cranky old soldier with bad bed side manners is more offensive than anything you guys already do is... odd.

Thul never lies... he prefers dialogue to violence... and he is appalled by slavery... (all three of which he has already demonstrated) YET he is the one that needs to 'change his ways'.

And when he does have to fight, he goes all in... he puts himself in front of the most dangerous foes or he tries to save lives (ie Melethos and Histra).

The decision to interpret Thuls actions as "A" rather than "B" is confusing.

[Jeff]

Again, it's about differentiating in-game stuff and out-of-game stuff, the eternal struggle. I think racism is fine here. Melethos was racist towards warforged at the start, for example. Thul has never known a tiefling; very few people have! Granted, this is a world with way more monstrous folk going about than any other D&D setting, and your average citizen of Khorvaire would have a higher tolerance for orcs and even ogres and such than, say, a citizen of Faerûn. And remember also that this is a setting where one's national affiliation tends to be stronger than one's racial ties. (Tends to.) So Thul would find more common ground with a Karrnathi elf than a Thrane human.

But tieflings are rare indeed. Most people have no traction with them, not even the same sort of negative associations that people might have with warforged. At least that's something to go on. Tieflings have only their looks and a vague sense of their ancestry that alarms people. A tiefling is going to have prejudices leveled against them. Par for the course.

And an old grognard like Thul? Yep, he's going to be rougher. It's up to Elvis to find the balance between irascible and playable.

[Brian]

Aug 23, 2018 9:02:03 GMT -4 Elvis said:

I forgot to add my most favourite moment...

When Kal gave a human being to the sahuagin.

As for Melethos... (not that Thul will act in this, since he didn't actually hear it)... but when Melethos reassured Adamant that Thul will never actually lead. It was just a tactic to placate Thul.

I guess that is what I am trying to figure out. This whole crossing the line thing. When Thul does something you don't like, the response is always harsh... including being hit with a darkness spell at a moment where they could have been attacked. But when Thul speaks plainly to Streko, who he feels has more potential to contribute to the party, that is considered 'crossing the line'.

When has it become more palatable to lie, justify violence and threats when you are offended, and slave traffic? The idea that a cranky old soldier with bad bed side manners is more offensive than anything you guys already do is... odd.

Thul never lies... he prefers dialogue to violence... and he is appalled by slavery... (all three of which he has already demonstrated) YET he is the one that needs to 'change his ways'.

And when he does have to fight, he goes all in... he puts himself in front of the most dangerous foes or he tries to save lives (ie Melethos and Histra).

The decision to interpret Thuls actions as "A" rather than "B" is confusing.

You make a good point, Elvis. But either I didn't write Mel's post well enough, or you misinterpreted what I wrote or intended: Melethos's intent, by placing Thul second-in-command, is that Thul is indeed the best for that role. I made that very clear to Adamant, but you don't mention that point. As to the other motive, what I meant (and probably wasn't clear enough) is that Thul likely won't see his role as second-in-command come up soon. But when it does happen, after enough (game) time has elapsed and we all know and trust one another more, Thul will be the perfect person for that task, because we all have evolved and his battle skills have been proven. Yes, if Thul remains "intractable" to the point that he never gets along with anyone, that would have to be addressed in game. But you have stated your intent is to have Thul adapt over time, just as we will have to.

Elvis, you chose to introduce a character who will not be liked, who will shake things up. Personally, I think that is great. But like any system that has been in place for a long time, when you introduce a disruption, the natural tendency is to make that disruption go away. Since it cannot, a new system eventually forms. That is what we are dealing with here, I think. And I say, let it evolve and form. Don't take anything personally. And yes, the group will look toward Thul to conform, until time shows that everyone must change to this new reality.

Does that make any sense?

[Elvis]

Don't get me wrong.

I am loving the game and the dynamics between all the characters.

I wouldn't change a thing.

[Jeff]

I'll just add that in the past, Kal has often been insufferable to some NPCs (and occasionally PCs!) and even his high Charisma couldn't quite temper his arrogance and snobbishness at times. I think he's gotten way better, and more people like him. So I think sometimes you just have to give characters a while.

[Darren]

At least Belarin said that Kal "sparks" and not "sparkles"!

[Ken]

Aug 24, 2018 9:50:00 GMT -4 Jeff said:

I'll just add that in the past, Kal has often been insufferable to some NPCs (and occasionally PCs!) and even his high Charisma couldn't quite temper his arrogance and snobbishness at times. I think he's gotten way better, and more people like him. So I think sometimes you just have to give characters a while.

Quite true. In the past, Belarin would have to beg Kalarian NOT to talk to any NPCs. Now he's only moderately anxious when Kal opens his mouth.

[Jeff]

FYI, I'm just waiting. Waiting for stated actions, as always.

[Darren]

From who? I thought everyone said what they were doing.

[Jeff]

I've got nothing to move on with. A few have gathered around Belarin, whose last action was to sit with his components/focus. No spells have been cast.

[Ken]

Oh geez. Fine. Belarin will officially cast.

[Jeff]

Not sure what else to say about it that I haven't before. I need to read actions, or I'm doing the guesswork, or jumping the gun when a character wasn't ready to move forward. I don't want to move based on intentions. A character saying "Let's go" to another character is just dialogue, and maybe more will follow it and I don't want to deny that opportunity.

More importantly, I've been down the slippery slope problem of "...but I would have" so many times where a character would have done something, wouldn't have done something, would have picked something up they never actually wrote on their character sheets, etc. Not just in this game but in gaming in general. There are situations (no, not like the current one!) that I'm trying to avoid by sticking by the stated actions rule and keeping that precedent. It's just much easier. Just need you guys to trust me on this.

[Jeff]

I'm ready to move on to the next day(s), but I also want to let Adamant and Melethos conclude their conversation. But in advance of further combat and strategy talk, I thought I'd go ahead and display Thul's suggest formations as a basis for discussion. It's completely up to you guys, but I would suggest refining it, giving some command titles (like code names), so that in-combat you can try to use them if you wish—given the space to do so.

This is based on Elvis's earlier diagram here: drive.google.com/file/d/1GP7oC0Fb6Doj-cPlK6xQGDHKnyOp7ST0/view

Did I translate this right, Elvis?

At the top are the NPCs who haven't been factored in (yet?). And note that Histra fully intends to get some skeleton sentries together, when she gets enough raw materials (humanoid enemy corpses), so eventually you might even consider them.

Anyway, have at it. Tell me what you'd change, and I'll alter this going forward. Such formations can be practiced on board the Dragonfly during its voyage.

[Elvis]

Looks good.

Adding the others into the formations won't change the frontline UNLESS we get more undead fodder. 

Although, depending on the scenario, I would like to see the undead guard out flanks and support PCs/NPCs

Thoughts?

KEN: Those codes/commands are good. 

BRIAN: Congrats! Looking forward to the seeing it. I enjoy me some good horror!

[Ken]

Ack! I thought I had posted this to the Discussions thread! Sorry about that, Jeff. Here you go:

_________________

I've been thinking about a few quick "codephrases" we can use in combat:

"Wedge!" = go into Thul's wedge formation
"Square!" = go into Thul's square formation
"Fekked!" = go into Thul's diamond, we-are-so-screwed formation

"_____, upstairs!" = a command for someone to go to Kal for a fly spell (and for Kal to cast said spell)
"______, ghost!" = a command for someone to go to Belarin for an improved invisibility spell (and for Belarin to cast said spell, if he still has a spell slot available)

"Spin on ______!" = a command for Shorak to do his long-range fabulousness on the foe facing the named ally (e.g., "Spin on Streko!" would be a command for Shorak to take out the foe attacking Streko)
"Barrier!" = a command for Kal to cast wall of fire as a defensive or retreat maneuver

Other commands can be more straightforward, like "Adamant, protect ____" or "Streko, heal ______."

Thoughts? Other suggestions?

[Jeff]

Upstairs, ghosts, spin? Good ones.

But if you guys ever do a battle in the high stairwell of an airship tower haunted by incorporeal undead, especially if there's some sort of spinning blade trap involved, your commands are going to get screwy.

Also, I recommend established who gets to make these formation commands? Is it just Melethos, with Thul on standby for when Melethos falls into a pit or something (he's fallen into some pits)?

[Brian]

Sept 2, 2018 15:06:10 GMT -4 Dave W. said:

---

thank you Brian... you went where I wanted this to go... better than had I written both sides... I think we can move on

Dave, you did perfectly well. I mean, I understood where you were going. I'm glad we had the opportunity to role play that little sequence.

[Brian]

Regarding the formation issue, I think Melethos should be the one giving the commands, with Thul ready to step up in case a pit opens up beneath the tiefling.

As for the NPCs. Tangat is usually near Kal, and Melethos would defer to Kal on where he wants Tangat. Starg I would like to see near the rear of the formations, for added security. He may not be much of a fighter(?), but his big and scary looking. Histra would be more of a center person, to coordinate with Belarin on spell casting. Sem has me stumped, really. My instinct is to have him also in the center. Any undead sentries should hold our flanks, as Elvis suggested.

I'm good with Ken's suggestions for code names; quite creative. Remember that this will be trial-and-error at first, so expect refinements along the way.

[Jeff]

Guys, while I am looking forward to shooting forward in time soon, please know I can't do so until other events things are "resolved." So for those of you not choosing to engage with other characters or NPCs, there's no choice but to wait. I'm sorry if that makes things boring for you. It's up to each of you how you want to do this. I'm happy to engage each character, in any case. But I can't do all the story hooks myself.