Chapter 16: Q&A / Discussion

[Jeff]

As I wait for your cue, I need some clarity on the physical placement of people based on your description of the plan.

Jun 18, 2019 11:25:20 GMT -4 Darren said:

Kal nods at Streko. "See if you can go convince the Captain to come back. If he insists on going back to the ship, so be it. But be quick. I want you with us when we begin."

Kal grimaces at the idea of Melethos and the others staying outside the room. "Okay, he says. So be it. Belarin and I will go in and cast at the circle. I want Adamant between us. So we position ourselves like this," Kal scratches a circle into the dust on the floor, positioning himself on one side of it, to the west, opposite Belarin on the east, with Adamant at the northern point. "Melethos and Shorak, you remain outside the door here," he says, indicating the southern point of the circle. "That way, even without you in the room, we still have the fiend surrounded. Sem, you remain glued to Melethos' side. If we get sucked into that circle, it's your job to get us back out. Now," Kal places a hand on his chin, looking down at the circle, "do we need more spell-power than just Belarin and I? Do Histra or Streko need to be involved in the casting? If not, then I want Histra and her skeletons guarding Melethos' back, watching behind us for any trouble. And Streko can remain with Melethos to provide assistance out here if things go badly. Should the Captain choose to return, he can remain by Histra's side and make sure our rear is covered. Are we agreed?"

When Kal is drawing a circle, is that meant to represent the magic circle? Also, I'm particularly unsure about where you want the outside-the-room-people to go. There are two places outside: outside the two doors to the room. For simplicity's sake, you can assume the unexplored door is accessible now (it's where the drow mage had been hiding, but he's toast now) and the door is unlocked. You said Melethos and Shorak should be outside then indicated "the southern point of the circle." Does that mean the southern door? See/refresh the current map and maybe you can describe how you'd alter it based on this.



Where do you want Histra and her zombies "guarding Melethos' back" (where to fit them) and does that mean you don't want her casting? Granted, she can cast Dispel Magic (and so could Sem) from range, as long as they can see what they're casting on. Both have Dispel Magic prepared.

I haven't added Streko or Thul to the plan yet, since they're still at the front of the keep.

Did you want Shorak to stand next to Melethos as well? The way you've described it so far, Mel and Shorak are together but Sem and Histra and her undead and Streko are all with them as well. That's a tight group.

[Darren]

Sorry. I didn't have the map in front of me when I posted, and for some reason I was picturing the efreeti's chamber somewhere else. Let me see if I can clarify....

I'd like Kal to be essentially where the SW brazier is (so, next to it, I guess), and Belarin to be opposite him. Adamant should be where you are showing Kal. Melethos and Shorak are good where you're showing them, and Sem should stay by Mel. Histra can come into the room to cast and be opposite Adamant. Her skeletons can stay by Shorak (where you're showing them is actually good). When Streko comes back, he can go where you are currently showing Histra.


Does that work for everyone?

[Jeff]

I'm pretty sure if Kal and Belarin are on opposite sides completely, Adamant won't be within 10 feet of both (which I think was what he was going for, to involve his aura of protection).

Also, Histra left her skeletons on the ship. The drow zombies are the ones here in the keep with her.

[Brian]

I don't see a reason for Melethos and Shorak to be in that room. All the efreeti would need to do when freed to magically lock that door and we are out of the fight. I'd prefer if we were stationed in the main hallway to protect our flank. That said...

What Thul told Streko about the fire elementals (even though Melethos doesn't know what was said) makes me wonder about who is controlling the elementals. Unfortunately, unless Thul comes back to the party to explain his concerns, none of us knows what he is thinking except Streko.

[Ken]

Jun 19, 2019 9:44:04 GMT -4 Jeff said:

I'm pretty sure if Kal and Belarin are on opposite sides completely, Adamant won't be within 10 feet of both (which I think was what he was going for, to involve his aura of protection).

Yeah, when Belarin suggested that Adamant stay in the room as an anchor, the aura of protection (as well as Adamant's massive strength) was what I had in mind. Belarin and Kalarian should flank Adamant, about 10 feet maximum on either side.

[Dave W.]

Adamant will stand wherever Kal wants him. I'm not sure we know if it's necessary to attack the circle from all directions or focus on one spot but Adamant will, of course, feel more comfortable with everyone within a step or so so his Aura's help. But it's not always about Adamant's comfort...

[Darren]

My idea was not to surround and attack the circle from all sides, but to have the efreeti surrounded so that if he attacked, we have him flanked completely. That said, I agree with keeping Kal and Belarin within 10' of Adamant, so that part of the plan can stand the way Jeff drew it. I would still put Histra opposite them on the other side of the circle and near the door so that she can get out quickly, if needed.

I agree with you, Brian, about the efreeti being able to lock Melethos and Shorak out of the room. That's why I wanted them INSIDE the room, but you had suggested leaving them outside the door, hence where I suggested positioning them. With Kal, Belarin, and Adamant on one side and Histra, Melethos, Shorak, and Streko on the other, we still have him flanked on two sides, which isn't bad.

Sorry, Jeff. I keep referring to them as skeletons, but Histra's zombies is what I meant.

[Brian]

I'll have Mel stand wherever you want him, Darren. In the room. Outside. Just give the order.

[Jeff]

Okay, is this right?

Kal & Belarin & Adamant - fine where they are
Histra - opposite Adamant by south door but inside the room
Histra's zombies - fine where they are
Mel & Shorak & Streko - just behind Histra....outside the efreeti chamber and inside the little room? Or do you want Mel and Shorak and Streko outside the northern door of the room (the way you guys first came in here)?
Thul - likely to remain in center of keep it seems, depending on whether Streko does what he wants and casts Tongues on him before returning to the party

Save me some time and let me know who exaclty is casting and what when you get a chance. None of this will actually take place (including Adamant's Bless) until Kal gives the order to head back to the room. Right now this is just planning.

[Dave W.]

and Sem is outside?

[Jeff]

Oh, right. Darren said to have him next to Mel. So if Mel's outside the room, so will Sem be.

[Dave W.]

So the Bless, using a thrid-level slot, preferably right before the main casting:

Kal, Belarin, Adamant, Histra, Streko

[Elvis]

Correct.

Center of the courtyard.

With or without the tongues spell.

[Darren]

Jun 19, 2019 15:36:23 GMT -4 Jeff said:

Okay, is this right?

Kal & Belarin & Adamant - fine where they are
Histra - opposite Adamant by south door but inside the room
Histra's zombies - fine where they are
Mel & Shorak & Streko - just behind Histra....outside the efreeti chamber and inside the little room? Or do you want Mel and Shorak and Streko outside the northern door of the room (the way you guys first came in here)?
Thul - likely to remain in center of keep it seems, depending on whether Streko does what he wants and casts Tongues on him before returning to the party

Save me some time and let me know who exaclty is casting and what when you get a chance. None of this will actually take place (including Adamant's Bless) until Kal gives the order to head back to the room. Right now this is just planning.

Close. I would keep Mel and Sem where they are (small room) and Shorak where he is with Streko. That gives everyone a little more room to move.

Just waiting on Streko to come back and then we'll go.

[Brian]

Okay, Sem and Melethos just inside the small room.

[Brian]

Don't forget the efreeti promised us something else besides the azer armor, some bit of treasure from this braziers. Don't let him leave without handing it over.

Also, if the dragon and the efreeti end up duking it out, has anyone thought of grabbing some treasure from the dragon horde before we leave?

[Ken]

Belarin's plan is to cast dispel magic (warlocks cast at the maximum level, so it'll be Level 5 strength), and - because he's a duplicitous wanker - he'll then immediately cast hex at the efreeti as a bonus action (also at Level 5 strength). If the barrier doesn't immediately break from the first spells, then maybe hex will push it over the edge. If the barrier does break from the first spells, then the effect of hex will be on the efreeti. An extra advantage if he tries to screw with us.

[Dave B.]

Oh, if the efreeti goes for the dragon and keeps him distracted, Shorak is definitely going to loot some of the treasure. He wouldn't be able to help himself if he didn't 'help himself'.

[Jeff]

Jun 20, 2019 10:36:51 GMT -4 Elvis said:

The fire elementals are clearly assholes. In the earlier battle, Thul offered to help set them free. They don't seem to need freeing. All they are offering is smartass comments. So be it.

I understand this is just Thul's thoughts.

Regular elementals are not smart creatures. And most people have heard this. They are definitely smarter than average animals and dumb beasts but they're at least a smidgen smarter than dumb-as-rocks ogres. Nuanced communication with them is difficult even if you speak their language.

In that earlier fight, I know Thul had hoped to enlist the fire elemental's aid, but understand that he was speaking to them like they were enslaved to the drow. They either weren't or didn't know it or care. The only thing any of you have observed about the fire elementals in the keep is that they were "recalled" at one point from that battle when the dragon interfered. Kind of all you have to go on. They at least don't visually appear to be chaffing at anyone's reins at the moment.

[Elvis]

Thul is asking questions. If they choose to be smartasses, Thul can't sit there all day asking question after question after question if them.

Guys,

I'm not trying to rock the boat of sabotage the game.

We brought Sem for the purpose of identifying the circles. Thul pointed it out a couple of times by trying to get Sem to go check the frost salamander circle. That's when it was brushed off and Adamant cast his locate object spell. Sem was a great resource to get detailed info on the circles before engaging the efreet. Thul had no choice but to go off on his own to get that done. 

Also...

Kal insulting Thul as being too stupid to parley with the azer was a dick move.

Thul calling your plan bad was a dick move.

Tit for tat.

We need a better way to communicate, or at least make a checklist of things we should be getting doing so no one's actions are ignored.

[Jeff]

My DM's advice—and I say this as gently as I can so as not to influence your character decisions right now—is to wait for there to be no hostiles in the immediate vicinity before hashing stuff like that in character. When you're in the field, as it were, it's not the best time to try to rework or question previously-settled-upon leadership roles. Go along with the general consensus even if you don't really want to, within reason, and then talk about when the smoke has cleared.

Sometimes deviating in the moment can be good—so talk about that, too—and while throwing shade at a plan already in motion isn't great, things like what Thul did most recently does yield some results. You didn't know the dragon wasn't actually present; now you do. What that means you'll have to see.

[Darren]

I mean, in Kal's defense, Thul has an 8 Charisma. His Persuasion skill is a -1. Belarin has an 18 Charisma and a Persuasion skill of 8. And Thul has proven himself to be not at all diplomatic with anyone inside or outside the party, so yeah....Kal is gonna call him out on it when he suggests being the party's negotiator.

I get that Elvis, the player, has other ideas than what we have, and Darren, the player, appreciates that. I just wish there was a more constructive way for you to suggest those ideas than having Thul run off and do whatever he wants regardless of whatever the previously discussed plan was. If doing it in character as Thul is too far outside of how Thul should be played, come to this thread and voice your opinion OOC so that we can take that into consideration. This group has always been pretty democratic in the way we make decisions, and no one is here to purposely dictate how anyone else plays.

[Elvis]

Then we need establish the official thread in dealing with actions.

As Thul... spoke to Sem regarding taking him to see the circles... Kal approved... in the keep Thul stated they should check out the circle...

Are we saying this wasn't sufficient enough to deem it worth acknowledging? What is the magic number of times something needs to be posted and in what color code?

In addition to in-game posting like this, should we also repeat it in the other thread?

Thul taking Sem to the Xorn was not running off doing his own thing... it was him doing what he said he would do.

Also...

1. Thul thinks this is still a bad plan. It makes enemies out of the dragon (nuff said) and it makes enemies of the azers (who control the gate) and you can't trust the efreeti (obviously).

2. metagaming is a slippery slope. Thul has successfully negotiated twice without needing a high charisma. He would have done it a third time if Adamant hadn't provoked the drow

[Jeff]

I for one think there's a stark difference between what your characters do and how they do it. Elvis isn't wrong; he's had some positive effects from his "negotiations" with mephits (a mixed bag, since they are intimidated by him but also actively hate him now), water elementals, and even the xorn (more on that soon enough); even some with Lamara (also a mixed bag, but not without information gleaned). He's direct and I think you see some results.

That said, they way he does this and the timing he chooses is definitely souring. He's not good at making friends of his own allies while doing these things. But they're not completely off the books. As Elvis said, some of it is based on what was discussed and agreed on (like Sem and the circles). You guys just have to work out timing better. By talking about more. That may be all it takes.


I also think it's fair to look further back, before Thul came along; Kal's got this high Charisma, but he's also been haughty to NPCs a lot and rubbed them the wrong way and made some enemies that way. It was a whole thing he used to do a lot more (and has done a lot less over time). His amazing Charisma would have more ooomph if he used it with Persuasion or even with Intimidation more than with condescension, which isn't really either one.

As far as insults, it's all about context. Sem has probably insulted all of you way more than Thul ever has (Starg usually takes the brunt of it). But he does it in a very I'm-on-your-side sort of way and it's good-natured. The words Thul has had with this part (and vice versa) has not been quite as well-meaning.

Anyway, on the topic of what's about to happen: Remind me, because I can't find it now...did you want Sem casting initially as well or just standing by to help with developments, like Streko?

Right now I have it that Adamant will be doing Bless, and it will be Kal, Belarin, and Histra casting their spells to try and dissolve the circle. And Ken, with Hex...

Also, choose one ability when you cast the spell. The target has disadvantage on ability checks made with the chosen ability.

[Darren]

I don't recall specifically saying that Sem should be off examining the circles. What I remember saying is that we agreed Sem should be with us because of his book knowledge and that he was more useful to us staying with us than staying on the ship. But as soon as Adamant went off on his drow-saving trip, Thul got impatient and decided to take Sem off on his own. If, after resolving the drow part, Thul had said, "Hey, before we go talk to the efreeti, we should examine these circles closer," I think we probably all would have agreed that was a good idea.

The plan was for Sem to remain outside of the casting so that if the casting goes wrong, he can work on getting us back out again. So no, he should not be casting. It should just be Kal, Belarin, and Histra.

[Elvis]

Agreed. There should be more reminders if we think something is being forgotten.

Thul suspects treachery (as expressed to Streko) and will remain outside and away from the party. This allows him to see what's coming and to go where he is needed.

[Joe]

Of all the characters in this game who have openly disliked Thul from the very beginning, its Streko. Having said that, Streko acknowledged and even admitted (grudgingly) respect for the Captain. He does get things accomplished, albeit not in the way most of the rest of us would. I can't even begin to tell you how many times Streko has said something that has been patently ignored...I've just learned to make under-the-breath snide comments via the character and move on. He really isn't taken that seriously when it comes to his suggestions (even though some of them are pretty damn good, if I do say so myself!).

Personally, I see Elvis playing Thul exactly as he should be played. That isn't always a fundamentally good thing as far as party dynamics goes, admittedly, but it adds spice to the game. As Jeff and Brian have told me before, don't take in-game stuff too personally. It's just a game and it's just for fun. So lets have fun, shall we?

I envy you New Yawkers. If you haven't met Brian before, you're in for a treat. He's one of the good guys!!

[Darren]

Sorry to hold things up. Not near a computer right now, but Kal will go ahead and cast Telekinesis again and heighten it.

[Jeff]

All right. Am I doing the roll for you?

[Darren]

I can't access the dice roller without a computer, so I don't mind you doing the rolls.