Chapter 9: Q&A / Discussions

[Ken]

Jeff, if I can get a little "meta" for a second: Can we safely assume that Syrdan is NOT a possible answer to this prophecy? Normally, our party would of course include Syrdan. But with Mike on DE paternity leave, we the players wouldn't include Syrdan as he'd have to be NPC'd for a while.

[Jeff]

You can assume that, Ken, yup. Plus, if the prophecy has any basis in truth, Syrdan wouldn't qualify anyone, as he was born and raised in Aerenal, nowhere near the Five Nations. He will stay with Lerrhana.

[Jeff]

Dave W., a worthwhile blog post by Keith Baker about warforged and resting in 4th Edition. Being the guy who created warforged, he's got it right (and I'm happy to see my thinking's already aligned with his):

bossythecow.com/hdwt/2011/09/eberron-thoughts-do-warforged-dream-of-iron-defenders/

[Dave W.]

Thanks for the article Jeff! I'll have to start following this blog.

so as I understand it:
If I don't need (want) to recharge dailies, I can be patrolling or traveling or reading and still "resting"
If I do need dailies back then I need to spend the 4 hrs meditating (maybe singing hymns softly)
If I get interrupted while meditating, I don't lose whatever progress I made, so if I get interrupted after 3 hrs I only need another 1 later.

Is that last point true for those less blessed that warforged?

[Ken]

Adamant cracks me up, Dave. Condign, too. I'd love to see Adamant and Condign star in a remake of Laurel & Hardy's "Sons of the Desert," set in the Demon Wastes.

As for the last point, yeah, I think that bit about pausing/interrupting the extended rest extends to all PCs. JMMV = Jeff's mileage may vary.

[Dave W.]

Sept 7, 2011 22:34:44 GMT -4 Ken said:

Adamant cracks me up, Dave. Condign, too. I'd love to see Adamant and Condign star in a remake of Laurel & Hardy's "Sons of the Desert," set in the Demon Wastes.

I'm imagining Condign starting to shout, taking a moment to rub his forehead right between the horns and then starting over more controlled.

Love Belarin's "I'm not like that, right?"

Poor Kal is Mr Cranky-Face today, I'm afraid.

[Jeff]

Yeah, I'm enjoying these interactions. Even happier that some characters like the underwater-and-bubble thing, while others don't.

Anyhoo...

Here's the deal with underwater rules (should they be necessary):

While in the air bubble, you can move and speak and attack as normal. If you leave the air bubble, you have to (1) hold your breath and (2) swim.

(1) Holding your breath: You can actually hold your breath for a ridiculously long time, when it comes to it. 3 minutes! However, if you take damage while holding your breath, you risk suffocation. Then Endurance checks get involved and you can lose healing surges, etc. We'll deal with that if we come to it.

(2) Swimming: Make an Athletics check DC 10 to swim through calm waters (or 15, if they get rough). If you succeed, then you can swim as part of your normal move action, though you must spend 1 extra square of movement for each square you enter while swimming (like difficult terrain). If you fail the check, you simply don't move. And if you fail the check by 5 or more, you also sink 1 down one square (should you not be on the ground).

Finally, when fighting underwater, the following modifiers apply:

• Creatures using powers that have the fire keyword take a –2 penalty to attack rolls.

• Characters using weapons from the spear and crossbow weapon groups take no penalties to attack rolls with those weapons while fighting underwater. Characters using any other weapon take a –2 penalty to attack rolls.

• Creatures native to watery environments have the aquatic ability. They gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls against opponents that do not have this ability. Aquatic monsters, such as sahuagin, are noted as such.

[Darren]

So there's no penalty for using electricity based attacks underwater? Interesting....

[Jeff]

Right, no inherent change there. Just the penalty if you attack an creature with the "aquatic" keyword in its statblock. But there are still possible for unusual situations, which we can talk about later.

As for this:

If I get interrupted while meditating, I don't lose whatever progress I made, so if I get interrupted after 3 hrs I only need another 1 later.

I'm a case-by-case kind of guy with stuff like this.

[Jeff]

Just waiting a bit. Want to give Streko a chance to relay (if he intends to) any of the sahuagin's words before moving on.

[Ken]

Hmmm, Invisible Castle is on the fritz right now. I'll try the Intimidate roll first thing in the morning.

[Brian]

Okay, why did Condign do what he did?

1) I assumed Kal would, um, naturally try to answer as the leader of the group, so I wanted the loud-mouthed fish-man to know the stature of the person he would be dealing with. This society seems rather aristocratic, having Barons and all, and having a "lord" around may influence things.

2) If this turned into a personal challenge--maybe like a duel or something--I want to present Condign as a bodyguard of sorts who could be used as a second.

3) I never thought Belarin would be the one to speak up.

4) I don't know if it would be enough to aid Belarin's Intimidate check, because the threat was implied.

[Darren]

Belarin only spoke up first because I had a long day and Ken got around to posting before me.

But I like the idea of how this is going, anyway. The implication that that the lord is letting his powerful companions do the talking for him, that he's so powerful he doesn't NEED to actually say anything. Kinda cool.....

[Ken]

Right. I wasn't sure exactly what Condign/Brian had in mind, but keeping Four-Armed Fish Guy off balance seemed like the way to go.

Jeff: Invisible Castle is still down. Can't log on or roll dice. I guess we can wait a bit longer. Otherwise, if you want to make the roll, Belarin's total modifier with beguiling tongue is +11. That's before any Aid Another boosts from allies.

3) I never thought Belarin would be the one to speak up. ;-)

I know, right! He's always the quiet one!

[Jeff]

Ooh, dissension. Excellent.

But I will need some sort of consensus. Unless one of you fires off a spell or something. That's also a decision.

[Ken]

Looking at this realistically (yes, yes, we're talking about fighting fish-men while standing in a bubble at the bottom of the ocean, so "realistically" may not be the best word!), there would seem to be only 3 of the 6 PCs who can participate more or less fully in any fight: Kal, Belarin, and Streko, because those characters have at-will ranged attacks that won't be impeded by the water. As far as I can tell, Condign is severely restricted, Shorak won't be able to effectively throw anything beyond the bubble, and Adamant - while he doesn't have to worry about breathing - is at a disadvantage against multiple, more mobile opponents.

So do we really want to enter a fight where three of the characters might feel fairly useless?

I totally understand the counterargument (stated well by Adamant) that This Is What Heroes Do. Absolutely. And I'm OK if folks want to enter combat; there's plenty for Belarin to do. I'm just trying to spell out the disadvantages, both for characters and for players.

[Darren]

My thoughts and Kal's are basically the same on this. I completely agree that this is a fight we don't want. But I also agree with Adamant that if we don't fight and if "our" sahuagin lose, then what's the point of even finding the chest (which, by the way, we have no idea how to find)? In addition, we have no idea what will happen to us if the sahaguin mage is killed. The bubble might just disappear, anyway.

While it's true that many of our fighters are at a disadvantage, we are making an assumption that all of the sahuagin have ranged attacks, too. If they don't, then they would have to come to us in order to fight, which puts them on dry land, which gives us the advantage. Kal can keep moving the bubble to try to make sure that Condign, Shorak and Adamant have a target, too.

I don't think we're unjustified in attacking. They are trying to dispel the thing that is keeping us alive, and that's as good as trying to stab us through the heart.

I don't think we're left with much choice, honestly. I don't like it, but I think we have to fight.

[Dave W.]

Adamant wants to fight because we're heroes and responsible for escalating  and tactics... 

David wants to fight because I'd hate to get the crate, open it and then have the "bad" sahaguin mage shows up and pops our bubble. Not that I think Jeff would have us drown on round one; I believe he'd give us a chance. But if there's a chance of having to fight these guys anyway, I don't see why we'd wait.

Maybe if we set a lesser objective, like we'll try to kill the mage so we can't get drowned that way. Let our fishy guys deal with all the other fishy guys.

Jeff, if Adamant leaves the bubble, will he be able to fight on his feet or will he have to swim and fight which seems like a dicey proposition?

[Jeff]

Fighting while you swim is most likely necessary for everyone. It basically just eats into your move actions, that's all. It all depends on range. If the sahuagin prefer melee, then you can stand on the sea floor and fight. If they swim out of range, then swimming to or up at them becomes a bigger challenge.

[Brian]

I would still prefer not to fight at the moment. But my one concern is that we have intimidated the other guy. We can't just back down now. I would like to use more of a disdainful approach at the moment, as if this guy is beneath our attention and not that we simply do not want to fight.

[Ken]

Brian summed up my own concern about the Intimidate check going to waste, but if we take the disdainful approach and don't move OR fight, then we gain little and we potentially alienate the "good" side, too, even if they're victorious. And Dave had a good idea about focusiing on their mage guy first.

Darren, I'm not assuming that all of the sahuagin have ranged attacks, just that one or two of them do. (This is 4E, remember? Those tricksy monster forces are usually well balanced.) And if there's a controller-type who can push, say, Kal or Shorak several squares, i.e., out of the bubble, that's a problem.

I reluctantly agree with the merits of attacking. If we do this, let's try to take out the fish-mage first -- he's the immediate threat to the party. We've seen him move his arms, so hopefully we can still distinguish him from the others.

[Jeff]

Let me add one bit of meta-gaming info and one bit of complication.

Meta-knowledge: The successful Intimidate check prevented Sarquaa and his boys from outright attacking...or least stalling for a while. Hence popping the bubble becomes a precursor to further direct hostilities; his way of "leveling the playing field." (Fish logic, go figure.) Now you've at least got time to decide rather than have decisions taken from you.

Complication: Hras'Ka's boys sure look a lot like Sarquaa's boys. Once churning-water combat begins, it will be difficult to tell friend from foe (except Hras'Ka, the mage on Hras'Ka's side, Sarquaa himself, and maybe Sarquaa's mage), and this will be reflected in mechanics.

That said, I'm looking forward to fight or no fight. Both have fun developments.

[Darren]

So maybe this is the way we play it....

Right now, the other guy's mage is a direct threat to us. We've already intimidated them to say that they shouldn't mess with us. So we take out the direct threat, but leave everyone else alone. If they choose to attack, then we fight them, but we only attack anyone who is attacking us.

How does that sound to everyone?

[Brian]

That's fine with me, Darren. In fact, the mage trying to pop our bubble is, in essence, attacking. Condign does have a nifty magic rod that he's never used before that may help here. Or he could also just throw my big ass sword at it. I think Big Red may be close enough not to suffer a penalty.

Or Adamant can just walk over and squish him.

[Ken]

Good with me, too. If it's a blatant and fast display of force, then quickly taking out Sarquaa's mage may be enough to convince Sarquaa to continue his retreat. He may not want to see what else we have up our sleeves.

[Darren]

My thoughts exactly. An impressive display of power may just reinforce our previous intimidation.

Let us, as they say, unleash hell. ;D

[Brian]

Darren, please, we were all discussing what to do, and then you have Kal up and throw a spell. Not that it's a bad idea--and it very well may be the best idea--but couldn't you have at least found out if anyone wanted to do something first? Condign certainly wasn't the best guy . . .um, tiefling for the job, but maybe someone else had an idea.

[Darren]

My apologies, Brian. I thought we had more or less reached consensus. I can rescind Kal's actions if that's what we decide.

[Brian]

No, of course not. Don't rescind it. It was rather Kal-ish.

My understanding was that no one had decided exactly what to do yet, nor who should do it. Only that we should act.

My only point was that one of the others may have wanted a say in doing something before we decided who would actually take action.

[Darren]

OH! I thought we had decided that we would ALL attack the Mage.