Chapter 7: Q&A / Discussion

[Brian]

I killed my gnoll!!

My plan for this round is to get close enough to Syrdan to use Shake It Off. I've already cleared this with Jeff -- it will add +3 to Syrdan's next saving throw. I hope it helps.

I'm enjoying it too.

[Jeff]

Actually, Brian, it doesn't grant Syrdan a bonus on his next save; it outright gives him an immediate save. The weird thing about death saving throws is that they're not really like the "save ends" type. The rules are a little unclear.

If Condign's shake it off attempt doesn't succeed, in the very least I won't have it count against another failed attempt. Worst case scenario, it just breaks even.

Note also that in addition to standard healing means, if anyone gets to Syrdan and makes a Heal check, they can try to stabilize him. In addition, and this is strictly out-of-character, if anyone even use a healing surge for themselves adjacent to Syrdan, his bracers give him a dose of healing.

[Jeff]

Darren, this is what the area would be for Burning Spray. Note that Adamant's in there. It's not nice to burn your friends. Although Condign could probably handle it best.

[Mike]

Dec 14, 2010 11:59:31 GMT -4 Jeff said:

The weird thing about death saving throws is that they're not really like the "save ends" type. The rules are a little unclear.

The death saving throws essentially say "you make saving throws when you drop below zero hit points. Fail three in a row = death."

I would actually argue that there's no point in Brian using Shrug It Off on Syrdan if it doesn't give him a bonus, since all he's really doing is accelerating when Syrdan can use his third saving throw. It shouldn't effectively give him an extra one (i.e. a fourth one) to use.

So even though it helps Syrdan, I'd disagree with the notion that Shrug It Off shouldn't count against another failed attempt. Three fails in a row = death, regardless of the circumstances allowing those saves.

[Jeff]

Gosh, Mike. Got a death wish?

[Brian]

Mike, as much as I don't want to disagree with your disagreement (;D), Jeff and I had a discussion this morning about just that issue. He, as the DM, ruled that Condign can use his Shake It Off and give Syrdan effectively another save vs death. I'm using an encounter power, so it's not like I can do that all the time.

So, while I respect your personal interpretation of the rules and thoroughly enjoy your game-playing style (which has been epic, by the way), I will follow the DM ruling and use Shake It Off.

Good luck on that save, buddy.

[Jeff]

I'm having a hard time finding clarity on this issue anywhere. The mistake the 4E designers made is calling death saving throws "saving throws" at all; they don't work like other saving throws.

[Jeff]

So here's my ruling. Condign can use Shake It Off to allow Syrdan an extra saving throw, but not a death saving throw. Now, for it to be effective, it still has to get 20 or higher for Syrdan to revert to 0 hit points and become stabilized. Anything less and simply nothing happens.

[Ken]

Dec 14, 2010 11:22:05 GMT -4 Jeff said:

Ken, I'll let you decide now who you want to be cursed. If you want to teleport around, you're best best is to curse, then kill a goblin. But...Rejdar is the closest.

Thanks, Jeff. Warlocks can "place a Warlock's Curse on the enemy nearest to you that you can see." So that would have been Rejdar in the last round. Belarin is free to curse another target this round, though.

[Jeff]

And to clarify for justification, because Condign's expending an encounter power, he's hoping to help revive Syrdan with this extra attempt. But failing it won't result in a third failed death saving throw. In other words, Condign calling out, "Yo, buddy, get up!" isn't going to actually risk killing Syrdan.

[Ken]

Brian, just a thought: since Condign isn't attacking this round or expecting to be attacked, you could also consider running, as opposed to normal movement.

RUN: MOVE ACTION

• Speed + 2: Move up to your speed + 2. For example, if your speed is normally 6, you can move up to 8 squares when you run.
  
• –5 Penalty to Attack Rolls: You have a –5 penalty to attack rolls until the start of your next turn.
  
• Grant Combat Advantage: As soon as you begin running, you grant combat advantage to all enemies until the start of your next turn.
  
• Provoke Opportunity Attacks: If you leave a square adjacent to an enemy, that enemy can make an opportunity attack against you.

[Brian]

Hmmm . . . in that case I shall modify my post.

Thank you kindly, Ken. ;D

[Mike]

Dec 14, 2010 13:16:03 GMT -4 Jeff said:

Gosh, Mike. Got a death wish?

Not at all. I would have the exact same position, Jeff, if you were playing Syrdan and I was the DM. I just want to be sure the call is correct.

And, respectfully, I still disagree with the ruling, even though it favors Syrdan. I don't think when it comes to death saving throws, a character should get "an extra attempt" from the use of Shake It Off, as you mentioned.

Normally, it works fine when it comes to saves versus conditions like Dazed or Immobilized - if a character gets an extra save from Shake It Off and fails in that state, it's a nuisance, but the character just gets to make another save the following round.

With the death saving throws, the rules very clearly state "three failures and you're dead". I don't see how Shake It Off gets to effectively increase that to four failures. All it does is speed up Syrdan's third save from next round to this round, on Condign's initiative.

But you're the DM, obviously. I'll go by your ruling, whatever you decide to do.

[Jeff]

I see both arguments as compelling. The wording of powers like Shake It Off doesn't exclude death saving throws, but the nature of death saving throws makes it an awkward ruling. What I really want is an official ruling from one of the WotC designers; I KNOW this must have come up many times before and has probably been talked to death on the WotC boards, but searching for stuff on the boards is next to impossible.

My ruling, at least for this encounter, stands. But the point is probably moot. Syrdan will still need a 17 or higher on this Condign-given extra save.

Honestly, the best and only likely chance Syrdan has is a successful Heal check or a dose of real healing, not saving throw sleight of hand.

[Dave W.]

I'm all confused... Why doesn't Condy ( ) just use Inspiring Word (or Streko use Healing) and get Syrdan up? It would get him positive hp.

Alteratively, I was going to try mu last lay on hands.

why mess with a death save when you can just stand him up?

[Brian]

Jeff and I agreed that Inspiring Word would require a purposeful use of a healing surge by Syrdan. As he is unconscious and incapable of purposeful behavior, that was ruled out.

[Darren]

I think Streko will have a hard time getting to Syrdan, what with the big troll in the way.

I think next round we'll have to determine exactly who is/can get to Syrdan and what they're going to do for him. Since Condign and Adamant will be the closest ones at that point who are capable of doing anything for him, they'll be the likliest candidates. (I know Kal is nearby, but beyond doing a Heal check, Kal doesn't really have anything to help and since he can hit the troll with fire, I figure that's his best use right now).

Also, Dave, can you move Adamant down a square so that Kal can more easily do his thing next turn without getting hit by the troll?

[Brian]

Dave, I'm sorry but I was just told that I'd misread what Jeff had sent me this morning. Apparently he's willing to allow the 4E rules to apply to both powers. So I guess Inspiring Word would work. Jeff, is it okay to modify this post to go from Shake It Off to Inspiring Word, if that is indeed your ruling? Dave is right that the latter would indeed help Syrdan more.

Sorry for the confusion.

[Jeff]

Yeah, I think the morale-based healing powers are a bit silly for healing people who can't hear them, but I don't want to imbalance the game. Even unconscious, someone can benefit from the healing of a warlord.

So yes, Brian, inspiring word is just as viable as shake it off.

[Ken]

There have been tales over the years of people at the brink of death who claim to have "returned" to life after hearing the inspiring words of others nearby. Whatever the truth of such reports, the warlord's martial power to aid life is just as feasible in a fantasy RPG as a paladin's laying on of hands, in my humble opinion.

[Dave W.]

Actually I think they were taking their cue from cinema. The hero is down and apparently unconscious but they sidekick makes the impassioned plea for them to "get up... Please, we need you" kind of thing. It's sort of cliche, the hero is beaten but the friend gets them back up then the pissed-off hero kicks butt.

[Brian]

Sidekick? So it's now Condy the Sidekick??

(Just kidding. I actually had a hilarious vision of that, Dave.)

[Ken]

Sure, laugh now... until Syrdan starts calling you "Short Round."

[Darren]

Well, Mike did say that Syrdan is kind of like Batman.....

[Brian]

Ken:

Sure, laugh now... until Syrdan starts calling you "Short Round."

As long as I get to call him "Indy." ;D

Condign: "Syrdan, why are you just lying there?"
Syrdan (in a weak, near dead voice): "I'm digging my own grave."
Condign: "You're digging in the wrong spot."

[Jeff]

Are you guys suggesting that Condign, in the languages of the Demon Wastes, means "robin"?

Oh, and Brian: in a battle like this, take note of that encounter power of your new sword.

[Brian]

Jeff:

Oh, and Brian: in a battle like this, take note of that encounter power of your new sword.

Yes, I have indeed thought hard about that one. ;D

[Mike]

If Condign is indeed "Short Round" - and I most assuredly do not think he's a sidekick - then I think he'd need to be following around Belarin, or Kal, rather than Syrdan.

"No time for love, Mister Warlock, we need to go!"

[Ken]

Regarding the new round recap: Warlock needs sidekick badly!

Jeff, I just want to confirm that, in 4e, an opponent with reach can't make opportunity attacks unless you're in an adjacent square. (I recall that being one of the significant changes from v3.5, in which monsters with reach were REALLY nasty opponents, since you couldn't even approach them without drawing an attack.)

Essentially, if Belarin moves, he'll provoke an attack from Rejdar, but not the troll, correct?

[Jeff]

Ken, yes, you're right. I overlooked that myself...another holdover from 3.5 that I never had corrected. Hence Adamant's opportunity attack couldn't have happened. Good thing he missed and saved me the trouble of retro-calculating.

So yes, no opp attack from the troll but definitely one from Rejda.