Chapter 5: Q&A / Discussion

[Darren]

Kal's (and my) suggestion had been essentially what Charis is suggesting. However, I had suggested essentially (A), with the addition that the scrying spell be removed so that Malov thinks the book has either been re-shielded or the scrying spell has simply been removed. Then we let Kreelo (and others) know that the book has been stolen from the palace, and that the thief is looking for a buyer. We arrange the meeting, posing as the buyer, and find out who shows up.

[Ken]

I'm good with that, too. Option B is appealing, but without knowing what "inside info" Malov may be privvy to, the risk of his forces attacking the escort on their way to Arcanix is too big.

[Jeff]

Darren, I actually could use some clarity by what you/Kal mean by "removing the scrying spell."

The way scrying generally works in D&D (in old editions and the new) is that the scryer must actively initiate the spell or ritual to get it going. Assuming it's not being blocked by something, they can then view the person/object they're scrying, or discern its location with respect to themselves. There is a duration and it will eventually run out. So if they want to do it again later, they have to initiate the spell or ritual once again. In that way they can tell if the object is moving around...but no normal spell or ritual gives them a constant feed of information about the object.

When the book is placed within the lead casing, it doesn't suddenly close off some ongoing magic. It just means that the next time scrying is attempted, it simply won't be scry-able.

Now, since coming into the prince's possession, magic has been employed to replicate the effect of the lead casing without the lead casing. So it's blocked from magical sight while within Fairhold.

So Darren, what do you mean by removing the spell? It's not like a "scrying spell" was ever placed on the book in the first place by Malov and that how he finds it. He finds it because he's familiar with it and is using scrying magic of his own.

[Darren]

I suppose I misunderstood, then, Jeff. I thought there was a spell placed upon it that Malov was using to locate it. I also thought someone had, at some point, told us they could remove it, but I guess what they/you were talking about was the shielding that you mention. So I guess that's what I'm now talking about.

Kal doesn't understand magic so well. He just blasts stuff.

[Josh]

So, in-game, this is going nowhere fast. Is it time we just took a vote or what?

[Jeff's backup]

Jeff wrote:

Prince Aurad lets out a sigh. "I'll say again, the choice is yours to make." He indicates Belarin, Kal, Grafth, Streko, and Charis. "If you do not come to agreement, then we'll simply guard it here."

Hence, Condign will go along with whatever the other members of the group decide.

[Jeff]

So, in-game, this is going nowhere fast.

Precisely why I brought the matter up in this thread. This is the usual problem when a party has no clear leader, which we've known this party never will. Everyone casts their vote and then there's just an awkward silence. Because no one has the power to simply have the final word.

Tell me if I have this right:

Charis would vote to have the book studied (B) or destroyed (E), but not to be used as bait.

Streko and Grafth would rather see the book destroyed right away (E).

Kal and Belarin seem to lean toward (A), (C), or (D). But I can't tell which is the preference.

[Darren]

Kal's vote would be for A, for now.

[Josh]

Well, if the others will "cast their vote" here, we can come to a consensus and get moving.

[Ken]

Belarin also goes with option A.

That seems to leave us with a tie, at best. If Condign understandably chooses not to cast a vote (since he hasn't been involved with the book), Belarin will acquiesce to the book's destruction.

[Jeff's backup]

Condign most certainly does have an opinion! ;D

However, understanding chain of command and how important it is, and the prince's directive that Kal, Belarin, Streko, Grafth and Charis decide, he is going to observe quietly unless called upon.

[Darren]

Quote:
In my opinion, don't worry about Kal. I think you play him very well. There may come a time, however, when someone questions his implied authority .


Yep. I've given up on Grafth pretty much. It's either argue until you lose, leave, or break character to keep the game going.


See, that's what I worry about. I don't want anyone to not be having fun on my account....

[Josh]

Darren, you already know this, though. See the "DE Peril" thread.

[Jeff]

The problem that tends to reoccur is that sometimes a decision is needed, and not everyone's going to agree on what that decision should be.

Now, Kal is generally the most vocal, even if he's not the only one with a firm opinion. But what seems to occur most of the time (not necessarily the present scene at all) is that when others disagree with Kal, the argument just gets long and drags the game. Then, in the name of moving on, one or more people just give in and defer to Kal's decision. That's the pattern, I think. And that's what Josh is referring to when he says "breaking character," I think. That players end up making some decisions sometimes for the sake of game expediency, but is a bit out of character.

Again, I don't think that's the present situation. But it's happened in the past, and happened a bit with the book debate with the prince. The only solution I can think of for things like this....well, it brings me back to this ancient thread:

ashlock.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=3&page=1#17

The idea is that in my humble experience (having gamed for quite a number of years and usually DMing), players have to find a happy medium between sticking to their character's persona adamantly and giving in for the sake of (1) the game and (2) everyone's fun.

Josh, that does mean some level of "breaking character," but hopefully minimally so. Rather than forcing Grafth to break character and act against his will, allow Grafth, not Josh, to grind his teeth and give in for the sake of in-game expediency. And Darren, this does mean reining in the bossiness sometimes; hell, have him actively defer to someone else now and then. Do it in-character, not just because it lets other have more fun, but because Kal, not Darren, can see that his overbearing tendency to lead is making it harder for his allies to cooperate.

But I'll say again, I don't think the present situation (with Kal telling the party to split into two groups for the moment) is a good example of the problem being discussed. I don't think it's a particularly dramatic issue, and right now it's helping move the game along just fine.

[Jeff's backup]

Oh, Brian...you should go back and look at the early days of this campaign.....

Absolutely not! I'm having too much fun! Listen, I don't know what all of you are talking about, but I can get an idea. I was serious. I think Darren plays Kal well. But I've only been involved for a short time. And Condign is not at all hesitant to speak his mind--or place his hands upon another party member if he sees it as protecting honor, whether his or someone else's. I did that deliberately, trying to establish Condign's strength of resolve...and hoped like hell that Kal respected it.

It took Jeff a long time to convince me to do this. I stalled because the play-by-post concept did seem right to me. But I'm very glad that I did. This is more fun than I've had in a while.

I trust Darren. And Ken. And Josh. And Joe. And maybe Jeff. Apparently I made some noob mistake and opened a can of worms. It was unintentional. But seriously, this thing is a blast. I hope everyone is here just to have fun.

[Darren]

Not at all, Brian. I had been thinking this throughout the book debate.

I guess the problem that I usually end up having is that I try to defer or to open things up for everyone's opinions, and then we end up endlessly debating things and seeming to never really reach a decision.

Maybe the best way to then handle a situation like that is to take the conversation out of the game into one of these threads, discuss what we all want to do, and then move the conversation back in-game (which I think is what would happen if we were all sitting around a table).

[Josh]

I guess the problem that I usually end up having is that I try to defer or to open things up for everyone's opinions, and then we end up endlessly debating things and seeming to never really reach a decision.

I am suggesting that when we do debate things in-game, it wouldn't hurt if Kal, like the others, would capitulate more readily from time to time. Everyone else has to do it, even if their character would normally refuse.

[Darren]

I have been trying, Josh. I was ready to concede to destroying the book, but then we seemed to just move on from there.

[Jeff]

but then we seemed to just move on from there.

Eventually I have to get things moving. Every now and then someone makes a comment about how little time has passed in-game since starting DE, and unintentionally or not, it sort of comes off as a mild complaint. Which makes me want to move faster.

All in all, hard to please everyone.

[Ken]

Beautiful setup with that last post, Joe. Well played!

The last few posts have been extra-fun because we've rarely had much of a Belarin-Streko conversation during these months. Nice.

[Joe]

You made my day, Ken! Thanks!!

[Jeff's backup]

My apologies for the sparse posts. I've come down with walking pneumonia now. My journey through the fall of 2009 is complete. . .and it stank.

I leave tomorrow for my hunting trip (luckily the weather is supposed to be unseasonably warm) but I will check the posts throughout today to see if Condign can add anything useful.

Nice series of posts, guys.

[Darren]

Jeff, what season is it? What time does it get dark around this place?

[Jeff]

You know how sometime someone says something like, "It's only been 2 weeks?" even though we've been playing this game for like 2 years?

Well, the starting date for this game was the 2nd of Rhaan. The current day is the 14th of Rhaan.

Rhaan, as has been pointed out several times (starting with the first post of the first thread) is the Eberron equivalent of September. So it's late summer. Doesn't get dark until after, say, the 7th bell (7pm).

Always just a couple of clicks away.

[Ken]

Yes, I think it's safe to say that Belarin will get involved.

Please provide a map!

[Jeff]

None of the PCs are close enough to get melee-involved immediately. So I'd prefer initial actions or intent before I put the map up.

That also buys me some time to actually put it together.

But you can assume everyone generally arrives equidistant to the conflict, just from different angles (Grafth from the northwest, Kal/Belarin/Streko from the east, Condign from the south). With the University building wall about twenty feet due north of the fight.

[Jeff]

Just a rule I'd like to remind you guys, in case it's useful now. From the Player's Handbook:

Knocking Creatures Unconscious
When you reduce a creature to 0 hit points or fewer, you
can choose to knock it unconscious rather than kill it.
Until it regains hit points, the creature is unconscious but
not dying. Any healing makes the creature conscious.
If the creature doesn’t receive any healing, it is
restored to 1 hit point and becomes conscious after a
short rest.

So the basic rule is, if you don't specify, when you bring an enemy to 0 hit points, they're dead. If you want an enemy alive, at some point during the battle, state (and be very clear about it) that you only want to knock them unconscious as you continue your attacks.

There'll be times when even when an enemy is defeated, they'll fall unconscious and be dying without beind dead yet. I'll always be clear, when that's the case. I do that to give you a second chance, should you decide to keep certain enemies alive.

Just sayin'.

[Jeff]

I'm not sure what the party consensus is. Grafth seems to want to head to the docks, but quickly. Kal prefers to head to the Sovereign Host hospice (counter to what he said to Lamara earlier). Condign will follow everyone else's lead. Presumably Streko will follow Kal, and I don't know what Belarin's actual decision is.

Work it out for me, would you?

[Ken]

Hey, I already made a decision for ONE character!

Grafth would probably want to follow the "hotter" lead, i.e., the docks. Belarin thinks there's something to it, but he's willing to follow Kal's lead on this one. If the party does investigate the docks, he just wants to know whether, as part of his newly discovered "authority," he or Lamara can instruct the Watch to discreetly (discretely?) keep an eye on the hospice in the interim.

[Darren]

Did I make myself unclear? Kal said we should go to the docks. I apologize if that didn't come through. Kal was just pointing out all the other things we have to do, also, but yes, the intention was to go to the docks.