PLEASE READ: DE Peril!

[Jeff's backup]

When I logged on yesterday evening and saw the new thread, I immediately clicked on it and read the post. (Nothing like DE Peril to get your attention!) I understood what Jeff was trying to say, because I've seen all of the issues he points out some time during my brief time as a PC. Then I realized I was reading a post from 2008. They were the same issues he is relating now. To paraphrase a famous quote: DE, we have a problem.

Now, I am truly dismayed that Josh left the group. I've enjoyed his posts and the way he plays Grafth -- as much as I've enjoyed all your posts and play style! But I can see his point: if it isn't fun anymore, don't waste your time. Life is too short. I'll miss him.

As the newest person to join your ranks, I may be able to offer some fresh perspectives, as I don't have the "baggage" of all those past issues within the group.

I'm a AD&D player from a long time ago, starting around 1983ish. My group consisted of my friends, some of whom had very strong personalities. We discovered early on that a follow-the-leader style of group dynamic didn't work: someone(s) often felt slighted that so-and-so gets to make all the decisions -- or tries to role play that angle too far. So we sat down and broke down the problem (the group was going to stop it got so bad) and came back to one simple tenet: It's a game meant to enjoy -- and that is all it is. Our solution? Based on what the DM threw at us, the character class most suited to handle it took charge. As I was often the mage, anything magical meant I directed the group; battles fell to the warrior classes; stealing fell to the rouge. You get my point. And it worked well, until there was no clear class specialty needed. At that point, we adopted the "it's just a game and let's have fun" stance and moved it along, with no one character role-playing the leader.

Okay, let me now return to the present and DE. I have seen (read?) the tension between Grafth and Kal. Darren, you even suggested that I go back to prior posts to see how long that has been going on. I said I wouldn't, but I did. So here's my take on it. Darren plays Kal very very well, but at times just a little too well. Kal is a Dragonmarked and a member of an elite house. He's used to being in charge, and I believe that is how Darren is approaching Kal's gameplay. And from what I have read, it works 9 times out of 10. It was that 1 time out of 10 where I saw the tension build in the posts.

Now, Darren has also recently said outright that he is going to be more flexible with Kal, and he has been true to his word. And I believe Kal will continue to be more flexible. After all, we're all here to have fun.

The pacing of the game? I really can't comment here because I'm too new. But my opinion is this: when there is no clear class specialty to run the encounter, we need to use the DE Discussion thread to give our opinions out-of-character as to what is the most logical way to proceed, then to post in-character how your PC would agree to go along with our OOC decision and role-playing takes a back seat. So can we move this along faster? Sure, if we use the discussion thread more often!

I'm up for Option C also. Especially if Ken's friend wants to join. We can all resume at the same level. Though I agree with Joe that his character's personal thread should continue.

So to sum it up: no one is to blame, and everyone is to blame. That's how group psychology works. I plan on playing Condign for fun first: fun for me and fun for you. After all, it's just a game.

[Jeff]

Thanks for your perspective on this, Brian. I think you pegged some of the issues rightly.

What it all boils down to, I feel, is this: If we go with option C, which it seems we will, we can't expect that freshness alone to solve all the problems of the game. We've also all got to approach the game with a new level of adaptability. That means me, too. But it also means all of you.

Just this morning, the editorial for the next issue of Dragon magazine (online, of course) went up. I found it a bit appropriate, even though it describes a player character type that's more extreme than any in this game.

Roleplaying to the Max
by Chris Youngs

My grandfather was as stubborn as they come. Mulish doesn’t even begin to describe how obstinate he could be. It didn’t matter if you showed him documented evidence that he was wrong. He just wouldn’t change his mind. That said, he was thoughtful, caring, and played board games with his grandsons at any hour of the day, so I’m not complaining. Everyone knows someone like this, and most gamers know someone who roleplays like this in their games.

I call this person a Roleplaying Mule. This person settles on a character in a unique manner. The RM commits to a vision in his head and flat-out refuses to deviate from it. The vision must be preserved at all costs … even if doing so means that the rest of the table suffers.

Before I go any further, let me say for the record that I’m a big fan of a well-roleplayed character. I enjoy coming up with my character’s personality even more than I like picking his feats and powers. And I’m a power gamer, so picking feats and powers is like picking which cupcake to have—they’re all so delicious! Finding a hook, a role to play, so to speak, is great, but it’s important to remember that the game is a cooperative experience. You have your fellow players to consider.

The RM doesn’t do this. He makes deliberate character choices that can hamper other characters at the table. Playing a character to extremes can be fun, and a little interparty conflict can provide hours of entertainment. One of my favorite characters frequently misconstrued nearly everything his allies said, but I learned to watch that I don’t cross the fine line between occasionally-irritating-in-an-amusing way to outright infuriating.

Examples of the RM abound. One version of the character pursues his goals so single-mindedly that he ignores everything that anyone else at the table is trying to accomplish. He always want to turn left, even if the rest of the party is headed right. Another is the player who builds a character in direct opposition to another character. The “I hate elves” RM falls into this camp, made worse when he does so knowing he’s joining a party with an elf character in it. Another RM deliberately feigns ignorance to the detriment of his party. “I don’t think my character will understand the message, so I’m just not going to relay it.”

But the worst examples of RMs, as far as I’m concerned, are the adventurers who have no right adventuring at all (“My character’s an agoraphobe and never leaves the house”) or who are sociopaths (“I kill the paladin in his sleep” or “I steal the wizard’s gold when he’s not looking”). Why are these people adventurers? Who would want to hang out with them? If a player can’t come up with a healthy reason why her character is palling around with the party, odds are good he’s in it for the wrong reason.

All of these players typically fall back on the defense of, “that’s what my character would do.” There are variants: “I don’t think my character would know that.” Or “This is the character I made.” They boil down to the same excuse, and regardless of the rationale, it’s lame.

This is a cooperative game. Neither players nor characters should interact like obnoxious teenagers playing Halo. The people you’re gaming with are friends, and basic rules of consideration still apply.

Sometimes, the best thing for the game is to actually act out of character. Just like in real life, sometimes we’re faced with a situation that forces us to behave in an uncharacteristic way. Just as we all have choices to make, and sometimes we give up our preferences for another, we should follow the same principles in game. Stubbornly sticking to your guns when it comes to your character’s personality can end up robbing another player—or maybe all of them—of their chance to have a good time. If you’re an extreme roleplayer, keep that in mind next time that defensive thought, “Well that’s what my character would do” springs to your mind. Maybe it is, but … maybe not this time.

That last paragraph is my real point. Like a novel, characters can change. Not necessarily drastically. But allow the circumstances of the story to change your characters, at least in a way that makes them get along with the others more.

Ken, you check with your friend.

In the meantime, let's keep going where we're at right now. I'd like to at least finish the upcoming scene. Then I'll find a good stopping point before we skip forward.

[Jeff]

So I guess we're all for option C, then?

Here's how I think we'll handle things. First, we'll wrap up the current encounter. Just stick with it, and perhaps a revelation or two may come of it. More importantly, what comes to pass during our flash forward may depend upon the outcome of the coming scene. So put your all into it.

Then we brainstorm a bit. Heck, we can even start that now. I'm going to push the current events a bit into the past. Not everything will be fully wrapped up, but much of what you're dealing with now will fade to the background. Now, Dark Echelon is the name of the campaign; I'm not abandoning that story thread entirely. You'll see what I mean.

But I would like to know what style of game you would find the most fun. For one, I'd like to personalize future quests a bit more. That is, steer things a little bit away from "save the world" scenarios (although as heroes, you'll be called upon to deal with stuff like that now and again) and more toward what drives your characters.

Belarin's still got his own longterm goal, involving his pact dagger and the Mistress of the Whisper Wood.

Kal's got a puzzle to solve, tied into his own powers.

Condign left the Demon Wastes for a reason.

Streko is searching for his sister. More on that later.

Another question is...what reason would you have to stay together? If the threat dies down, wouldn't they all go their separate ways? You can come up with reasons, or I can suggest some.

Once I have a better idea of what you guys would like most, and even what regions of Eberron interest you most, we'll make the jump forward in time and I'll summarize the events that come to pass during that time.

[Ken]

Jeff, first of all, thanks again. I didn't mean to knock PbP as much as point out its limitations. Believe me, I enjoy PbP for the advantages it provides (and which you described yourself); otherwise, I wouldn't have been playing simultaneously in three PbP games last month. (I'm down to two now!)

As for Belarin's reasons for staying with this group: Belarin is a ready-made adventurer. He's a scholar and is curious by nature, he has lacked a real purpose in life up till now, and he genuinely likes the people he's with. He doesn't have to explain himself to them, and he knows he'll need friends in order to fulfill his mission for the Wood Mistress. If the other PCs have an adventure in mind, he'll happily join them.

As for where/what next, I'd be interested in going to Sharn or -- after reading your novel -- Karrnath. Muahahaha! And Belarin would like to get in good graces with someone from House Orien who could help him come up with better forgeries of travel documents.

[Jeff's backup]

The reasons Condign left the Demon Wastes had to do with this particular campaign. He's already accomplished one: warn the Five Nations. We haven't touched on the other one yet, but it too was linked with this campaign.

I'm at work so my reference material isn't here, but I think I remember that Ghaash'kala members can adopt two different disciplines: a mystic of some kind and a warrior of some kind. That could easily be adapted into this new campaign. Kind of a go-away-and-don't-come-back-until-you-are-ready rite of passage thing.

Stay with the group? Absolutely. Tieflings are fiercely loyal once they make friends. He would even take it upon himself to lend his assistance in their quests if he could help them.

Where to do next? I haven't a clue. I'll just go with the flow there.

[Jeff]

Actually, option C is still the same campaign. The campgain itself is called Dark Echelon. We're staying with that. It's just that the current plot and quest threads will shift.

[Jeff's backup]

Right. Thanks for the clarification, Jeff. Much appreciated.

[Darren]

Yeah, Kal's got good reasons for staying, too. He was pretty much drifting before the rail incident, so now he feels a connection to these people and he sees them as a path to what he deserves.

Also, he feels an obligation to them as their leader. Whether they see it that way or not.

[Joe]

Not to disparage Tangat in any way, but Streko considers Kal's loyalty to assisting him in a very personal quest to be the primary reason for staying with the group, kinda like Kal's second puppy dog, so to speak. He has made friends of others, but many have perished or disappeared or gone their own ways and newcomers are and, perhaps always will be, treated with a certain degree of skepticism until they've been around for a while. Like all halflings, Streko is verbose and can be quite fierce in his convictions and actions, but he also thinks a lot, a philosophizes...so in some sense he's a cross between Kal and Belarin, without Belarin's sense of humor. Heh. He is tremendously loyal to Kal and will assist him in any matter, as Kal was really the first person who went out of his way to assist him with his own quest. However, the more he gets to know the others, the more he will be willing to assist them with their ventures as well.

Streko has always considered Dark Echelon to BE is own, personal quest...with the others as his aids. So personalizing it more, at least for Streko, is akin to preaching to the choir.

[Jeff]

Okay, so the motivation to stay together seems to be fairly easy for you guys.

But aside from Ken, does no one else have any geographical or other locale preferences? Areas of Eberron they'd like to explore? Not that you can't decide later, but it would help me plan in advance if you have any regional interests...

Karrnath, Ken, is a given. It's my favorite.

[Jeff]

Also, in this current scene, I need everyone's involvement, so I'll wait for Joe to post before continuing on.

[Darren]

Jeff, I don't really know much of Eberron beyond what I've read in your book and what we've done here, so I'm really okay with whatever we do.

As for style, I would be interested in a bit more action. I like the intrigue, but I think sometimes we're a bit overbalanced in that direction.

[Jeff]

Did you ever pick up the Eberron Player's Guide, Darren? (Not to be confused with the older [/i]Player's Guide to Eberron, although that's still more less valid, too.)

And as for the rest of Eberron, I can recommend some more novels to you.

I always wanted this game to be equal parts action and intrigue. I think the group dynamics and problems, and the general participation problems have contributed to making the "talking" scenes longer still. Sometimes the discussions go round and round because I'm angling to get decisions out of

If I try extra hard to make those moments move a bit faster, can I get a promise from you guys to try to decide faster? It might even be worth it, in-game and out-of-game, to talk about how to handle the leadership role of the party. Brian's experience with revolving leadership depending upon the scenario (mages deciding about magic, rogues deciding about rogue-ish things, etc.) was interesting. Not that every scenario is that easy to classify.

[Darren]

I have the Eberron Campaign Setting book from back in 3.5. I never really read too much of it, though. I bought that waaaay back before we even started this campaign, when we were first talking about and before Kal was developed as a character.

I, for one, would be happy to try to make decisions faster, and I think that out-of-game discussions will help speed those sorts of things along, as well.

Also, the current group seems to be able to come to a consensus faster than ever in the past.

[Jeff]

Also, the current group seems to be able to come to a consensus faster than ever in the past.

Another way to rephrase this might be: "Also, the current group seems better able to put up with Kal."

Why don't you leaf through the old campaign book, then? Most of it's still valid. All the basic lore of the world is the same.

[Jeff's backup]

I'm with Darren: out-of-game discussions -- I think -- will help move things along. I often have some extra free time to check the posts and comment. And, as I'm up so early in the morning, I also notice I tend to post first. (i.e. Condign's little charge this morning.) I'll limit that so others can have a hand at directing the action.

I certainly don't mind the intrigue parts; they let me flex my somewhat atrophied literary muscles. ;D

[Darren]

Jeff - AY!

Brian - That's funny. I always used to feel like I was the first one to post after Jeff, and sometimes I'd delay saying anything to give someone else a chance.

[Jeff]

Part of my attempt to breathe some new life into this game is the upcoming arrival of two more players.

One is Ken's friend Dave. The other is...well, you'll see.

[Darren]

I hope they like me.... ;D